Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 04:11:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: [lojban] Re: sumti-raising cmavo thingy
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Em ter=C3=A7a-feira, 12 de julho de 2016 13:08:51 UTC+3, la uakci escreveu:
>
> Hi!
>
> The other day, I was thinking, "wouldn't it be useful to have a=20
> sumti-raising infix cmavo?".
> In other words, wouldn't it be useful to have a cmavo that goes between=
=20
> the raised sumti and the rest.
>
> la solpa'i / la selpa'i / la me zi'o already discussed it over on his blo=
g:
> http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/proprietor-fronting
>
> Having said that, there is this fancy word, {zo'ei} (of LAhE).
> It's roughly equivalent to {zo'e pe}, but more of a single word than two.
> While {tu'a}, {jai} and {kai'a} (from the blog post) relate to a sumti an=
d=20
> an event,
> {zo'ei} is a relation between a sumti and something related to it.
>
> This brings us to metonyms.
>

Why is "sumti-raising" is in the topic? :)
Metonymy and raising are separate beasts.
=20

> Metonyms are somewhat related to metaphors;
> they are the usage of an object in a sentence instead of something of tha=
t=20
> object.
> For example, in the sentence "Orders came in from the office", even thoug=
h=20
> "office" really stands for "boss" (or something), "office" is used becaus=
e=20
> it has some relation to "boss".
>
> If we were to translate this sentence to Lojban with the metonym usage,=
=20
> we'd get
> { lo briju cu minde }.
> Because Lojban is a logical language to some extent, it's incorrect to sa=
y=20
> that -- offices don't give orders.
> Just like { mi cizra }, which needs a {jai} (because I'm not an event), {=
=20
> lo briju cu minde } should also be fixed with a {jai}-like cmavo, X. X,=
=20
> contrary to {jai}, would be in SE (because we don't need to use the=20
> {jai}-plus-sumtcita feature).
> In order to fix the example, we'd say {zo'ei lo briju cu minde} (which is=
=20
> not very natural), or, using X, {lo briju cu X minde}.
>
> Explaining it with a simple relation might help:
>
>  tu'a : jai : (kai'a) ::
> zoi'e :  X  :    Y
>
> It's also worth considering the Y, because it could be useful.
>
> ~ mi'e la uakci mu'o
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>Em ter=C3=A7a-feira, 12 de julho de 2016 13:08:51 =
UTC+3, la uakci  escreveu:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr">Hi!<div><br></div><div>The other day, I was thinking, &quot;wo=
uldn&#39;t it be useful to have a sumti-raising infix cmavo?&quot;.</div><d=
iv>In other words, wouldn&#39;t it be useful to have a cmavo that goes betw=
een the raised sumti and the rest.</div><div><br></div><div>la solpa&#39;i =
/ la selpa&#39;i / la me zi&#39;o already discussed it over on his blog:</d=
iv><div><a href=3D"http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/proprietor-fronting" ta=
rget=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www=
.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fselpahi.weebly.com%2Flojban%2Fproprietor-=
fronting\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFxWunk6-W98MDIqjkzloOyfaoY=
VQ&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url=
?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fselpahi.weebly.com%2Flojban%2Fproprietor-fronting\x26sa\=
x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFxWunk6-W98MDIqjkzloOyfaoYVQ&#39;;return =
true;">http://selpahi.weebly.com/<wbr>lojban/proprietor-fronting<br></a></d=
iv><div><br></div><div>Having said that, there is this fancy word, {zo&#39;=
ei} (of LAhE).</div><div>It&#39;s roughly equivalent to {zo&#39;e pe}, but =
more of a single word than two.</div><div>While {tu&#39;a}, {jai} and {kai&=
#39;a} (from the blog post) relate to a sumti and an event,</div><div>{zo&#=
39;ei} is a relation between a sumti and something related to it.</div><div=
><br></div><div>This brings us to metonyms.</div></div></blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div>Why is &quot;sumti-raising&quot; is in the topic? :)</div><div=
>Metonymy and raising are separate beasts.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: =
1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Metonyms are somew=
hat related to metaphors;</div><div>they are the usage of an object in a se=
ntence instead of something of that object.</div><div>For example, in the s=
entence &quot;Orders came in from the office&quot;, even though &quot;offic=
e&quot; really stands for &quot;boss&quot; (or something), &quot;office&quo=
t; is used because it has some relation to &quot;boss&quot;.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>If we were to translate this sentence to Lojban with the metonym=
 usage, we&#39;d get</div><div>{ lo briju cu minde }.</div><div>Because Loj=
ban is a logical language to some extent, it&#39;s incorrect to say that --=
 offices don&#39;t give orders.</div><div>Just like { mi cizra }, which nee=
ds a {jai} (because I&#39;m not an event), { lo briju cu minde } should als=
o be fixed with a {jai}-like cmavo, X. X, contrary to {jai}, would be in SE=
 (because we don&#39;t need to use the {jai}-plus-sumtcita feature).<br></d=
iv><div>In order to fix the example, we&#39;d say {zo&#39;ei lo briju cu mi=
nde} (which is not very natural), or, using X, {lo briju cu X minde}.</div>=
<div><br></div><div>Explaining it with a simple relation might help:</div><=
div><br></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0tu&#39;a : jai=
 : (kai&#39;a) ::</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">zoi&=
#39;e : =C2=A0X =C2=A0: =C2=A0 =C2=A0Y</font></div><div><br></div><div><fon=
t face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">It&#39;s also worth considering the=
 Y, because it could be useful.</font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, helve=
tica, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, san=
s-serif">~ mi&#39;e la uakci mu&#39;o</font></div></div>
</blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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