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From: Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 14:46:41 +0200
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: sumti-raising cmavo thingy
To: mriste <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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b
=E2=80=8Blanu blanu:=E2=80=8B


>
> Em ter=C3=A7a-feira, 12 de julho de 2016 13:08:51 UTC+3, la uakci escreve=
u:
>>
>> Hi!
>>
>> The other day, I was thinking, "wouldn't it be useful to have a
>> sumti-raising infix cmavo?".
>> In other words, wouldn't it be useful to have a cmavo that goes between
>> the raised sumti and the rest.
>>
>> la solpa'i / la selpa'i / la me zi'o already discussed it over on his
>> blog:
>> http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/proprietor-fronting
>>
>> Having said that, there is this fancy word, {zo'ei} (of LAhE).
>> It's roughly equivalent to {zo'e pe}, but more of a single word than two=
.
>> While {tu'a}, {jai} and {kai'a} (from the blog post) relate to a sumti
>> and an event,
>> {zo'ei} is a relation between a sumti and something related to it.
>>
>> This brings us to metonyms.
>>
>
> Why is "sumti-raising" is in the topic? :)
> Metonymy and raising are separate beasts.
>

=E2=80=8B1) Not really. Metonymy relates an object to something related to =
that
object (well duh),
and sumti-raising relates an object to an event related to that object.
Thus, sumti-raising
is a subset of metonymy.=E2=80=8B
2) The first email reads, "This brings us to metonyms", meaning that the
topic moved from sumti-
-raising to metonymy. Oops. The "parallel" topic to the main one turned out
to be the main one,
=E2=80=8Bmy bad.

Anyway, QUESTIONS!=E2=80=8B Please contribute to the topic.

~ mi'e la uakci mu'o re'i


>
>
>> Metonyms are somewhat related to metaphors;
>> they are the usage of an object in a sentence instead of something of
>> that object.
>> For example, in the sentence "Orders came in from the office", even
>> though "office" really stands for "boss" (or something), "office" is use=
d
>> because it has some relation to "boss".
>>
>> If we were to translate this sentence to Lojban with the metonym usage,
>> we'd get
>> { lo briju cu minde }.
>> Because Lojban is a logical language to some extent, it's incorrect to
>> say that -- offices don't give orders.
>> Just like { mi cizra }, which needs a {jai} (because I'm not an event), =
{
>> lo briju cu minde } should also be fixed with a {jai}-like cmavo, X. X,
>> contrary to {jai}, would be in SE (because we don't need to use the
>> {jai}-plus-sumtcita feature).
>> In order to fix the example, we'd say {zo'ei lo briju cu minde} (which i=
s
>> not very natural), or, using X, {lo briju cu X minde}.
>>
>> Explaining it with a simple relation might help:
>>
>>  tu'a : jai : (kai'a) ::
>> zoi'e :  X  :    Y
>>
>> It's also worth considering the Y, because it could be useful.
>>
>> ~ mi'e la uakci mu'o
>>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">b<div class=3D"gmail_default" s=
tyle=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace;display:inline">=E2=80=8Blanu blanu=
:=E2=80=8B</div><br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span c=
lass=3D""><br><br>Em ter=C3=A7a-feira, 12 de julho de 2016 13:08:51 UTC+3, =
la uakci  escreveu:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;marg=
in-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
>Hi!<div><br></div><div>The other day, I was thinking, &quot;wouldn&#39;t i=
t be useful to have a sumti-raising infix cmavo?&quot;.</div><div>In other =
words, wouldn&#39;t it be useful to have a cmavo that goes between the rais=
ed sumti and the rest.</div><div><br></div><div>la solpa&#39;i / la selpa&#=
39;i / la me zi&#39;o already discussed it over on his blog:</div><div><a h=
ref=3D"http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/proprietor-fronting" rel=3D"nofollo=
w" target=3D"_blank">http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/proprietor-fronting<b=
r></a></div><div><br></div><div>Having said that, there is this fancy word,=
 {zo&#39;ei} (of LAhE).</div><div>It&#39;s roughly equivalent to {zo&#39;e =
pe}, but more of a single word than two.</div><div>While {tu&#39;a}, {jai} =
and {kai&#39;a} (from the blog post) relate to a sumti and an event,</div><=
div>{zo&#39;ei} is a relation between a sumti and something related to it.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>This brings us to metonyms.</div></div></blockquot=
e><div><br></div></span><div>Why is &quot;sumti-raising&quot; is in the top=
ic? :)</div><div>Metonymy and raising are separate beasts.</div></div></blo=
ckquote><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospac=
e,monospace">=E2=80=8B1) Not really. Metonymy relates an object to somethin=
g related to that object (well duh),<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace">and sumti-raising relates an obje=
ct to an event related to that object. Thus, sumti-raising<br></div><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace">is a subset=
 of metonymy.=E2=80=8B<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-=
family:monospace,monospace">2) The first email reads, &quot;This brings us =
to metonyms&quot;, meaning that the topic moved from sumti-<br></div><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace">-raising t=
o metonymy. Oops. The &quot;parallel&quot; topic to the main one turned out=
 to be the main one,<br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:monospace,monospace">=E2=80=8Bmy bad.<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail=
_default" style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace">Anyway, QUESTIONS!=E2=
=80=8B Please contribute to the topic.<br><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_def=
ault" style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace">~ mi&#39;e la uakci mu&#39;=
o re&#39;i<br></div><br>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><span class=3D""><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Metonyms are somewhat related to metaphors;</=
div><div>they are the usage of an object in a sentence instead of something=
 of that object.</div><div>For example, in the sentence &quot;Orders came i=
n from the office&quot;, even though &quot;office&quot; really stands for &=
quot;boss&quot; (or something), &quot;office&quot; is used because it has s=
ome relation to &quot;boss&quot;.</div><div><br></div><div>If we were to tr=
anslate this sentence to Lojban with the metonym usage, we&#39;d get</div><=
div>{ lo briju cu minde }.</div><div>Because Lojban is a logical language t=
o some extent, it&#39;s incorrect to say that -- offices don&#39;t give ord=
ers.</div><div>Just like { mi cizra }, which needs a {jai} (because I&#39;m=
 not an event), { lo briju cu minde } should also be fixed with a {jai}-lik=
e cmavo, X. X, contrary to {jai}, would be in SE (because we don&#39;t need=
 to use the {jai}-plus-sumtcita feature).<br></div><div>In order to fix the=
 example, we&#39;d say {zo&#39;ei lo briju cu minde} (which is not very nat=
ural), or, using X, {lo briju cu X minde}.</div><div><br></div><div>Explain=
ing it with a simple relation might help:</div><div><br></div><div><font fa=
ce=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0tu&#39;a : jai : (kai&#39;a) ::</font></d=
iv><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">zoi&#39;e : =C2=A0X =C2=A0: =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0Y</font></div><div><br></div><div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica,=
 sans-serif">It&#39;s also worth considering the Y, because it could be use=
ful.</font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif"><br></fon=
t></div><div><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">~ mi&#39;e la uakc=
i mu&#39;o</font></div></div></blockquote></span></div></blockquote></div><=
div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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