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From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 16:31:51 +0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: sumti-raising cmavo thingy
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2016-07-29 15:46 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:

> b
> =E2=80=8Blanu blanu:=E2=80=8B
>
>
>>
>> Em ter=C3=A7a-feira, 12 de julho de 2016 13:08:51 UTC+3, la uakci escrev=
eu:
>>>
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>> The other day, I was thinking, "wouldn't it be useful to have a
>>> sumti-raising infix cmavo?".
>>> In other words, wouldn't it be useful to have a cmavo that goes between
>>> the raised sumti and the rest.
>>>
>>> la solpa'i / la selpa'i / la me zi'o already discussed it over on his
>>> blog:
>>> http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/proprietor-fronting
>>>
>>> Having said that, there is this fancy word, {zo'ei} (of LAhE).
>>> It's roughly equivalent to {zo'e pe}, but more of a single word than tw=
o.
>>> While {tu'a}, {jai} and {kai'a} (from the blog post) relate to a sumti
>>> and an event,
>>> {zo'ei} is a relation between a sumti and something related to it.
>>>
>>> This brings us to metonyms.
>>>
>>
>> Why is "sumti-raising" is in the topic? :)
>> Metonymy and raising are separate beasts.
>>
>
> =E2=80=8B1) Not really. Metonymy relates an object to something related t=
o that
> object (well duh),
> and sumti-raising relates an object to an event related to that object.
> Thus, sumti-raising
> is a subset of metonymy.=E2=80=8B
>

Yes, I meant {tu'a}, which cannot work for "Plato and Shakespear are here
in this room on the same shelf."

2) The first email reads, "This brings us to metonyms", meaning that the
> topic moved from sumti-
> -raising to metonymy. Oops. The "parallel" topic to the main one turned
> out to be the main one,
> =E2=80=8Bmy bad.
>
> Anyway, QUESTIONS!=E2=80=8B Please contribute to the topic.
>
> ~ mi'e la uakci mu'o re'i
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>> Metonyms are somewhat related to metaphors;
>>> they are the usage of an object in a sentence instead of something of
>>> that object.
>>> For example, in the sentence "Orders came in from the office", even
>>> though "office" really stands for "boss" (or something), "office" is us=
ed
>>> because it has some relation to "boss".
>>>
>>> If we were to translate this sentence to Lojban with the metonym usage,
>>> we'd get
>>> { lo briju cu minde }.
>>> Because Lojban is a logical language to some extent, it's incorrect to
>>> say that -- offices don't give orders.
>>> Just like { mi cizra }, which needs a {jai} (because I'm not an event),
>>> { lo briju cu minde } should also be fixed with a {jai}-like cmavo, X. =
X,
>>> contrary to {jai}, would be in SE (because we don't need to use the
>>> {jai}-plus-sumtcita feature).
>>> In order to fix the example, we'd say {zo'ei lo briju cu minde} (which
>>> is not very natural), or, using X, {lo briju cu X minde}.
>>>
>>> Explaining it with a simple relation might help:
>>>
>>>  tu'a : jai : (kai'a) ::
>>> zoi'e :  X  :    Y
>>>
>>> It's also worth considering the Y, because it could be useful.
>>>
>>> ~ mi'e la uakci mu'o
>>>
>>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">2016-07-29 15:46 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a h=
ref=3D"mailto:ciuak.prog@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">ciuak.prog@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">b<div style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace;display:i=
nline">=E2=80=8Blanu blanu:=E2=80=8B</div><span class=3D""><br><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span><br><br>Em ter=C3=A7a-feira, 12 d=
e julho de 2016 13:08:51 UTC+3, la uakci  escreveu:<blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">Hi!<div><br></div><div>The other day, I wa=
s thinking, &quot;wouldn&#39;t it be useful to have a sumti-raising infix c=
mavo?&quot;.</div><div>In other words, wouldn&#39;t it be useful to have a =
cmavo that goes between the raised sumti and the rest.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>la solpa&#39;i / la selpa&#39;i / la me zi&#39;o already discussed it =
over on his blog:</div><div><a href=3D"http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/pro=
prietor-fronting" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank">http://selpahi.weebly.=
com/lojban/proprietor-fronting<br></a></div><div><br></div><div>Having said=
 that, there is this fancy word, {zo&#39;ei} (of LAhE).</div><div>It&#39;s =
roughly equivalent to {zo&#39;e pe}, but more of a single word than two.</d=
iv><div>While {tu&#39;a}, {jai} and {kai&#39;a} (from the blog post) relate=
 to a sumti and an event,</div><div>{zo&#39;ei} is a relation between a sum=
ti and something related to it.</div><div><br></div><div>This brings us to =
metonyms.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div></span><div>Why is &quot;s=
umti-raising&quot; is in the topic? :)</div><div>Metonymy and raising are s=
eparate beasts.</div></div></blockquote></span><div><br><div style=3D"font-=
family:monospace,monospace">=E2=80=8B1) Not really. Metonymy relates an obj=
ect to something related to that object (well duh),<br></div><div style=3D"=
font-family:monospace,monospace">and sumti-raising relates an object to an =
event related to that object. Thus, sumti-raising<br></div><div style=3D"fo=
nt-family:monospace,monospace">is a subset of metonymy.=E2=80=8B<br></div><=
/div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, I meant {tu&#39;a}, =
which cannot work for &quot;Plato and Shakespear are here in this room on t=
he same shelf.&quot;=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div><div style=3D"font-fami=
ly:monospace,monospace"></div><div style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace=
">2) The first email reads, &quot;This brings us to metonyms&quot;, meaning=
 that the topic moved from sumti-<br></div><div style=3D"font-family:monosp=
ace,monospace">-raising to metonymy. Oops. The &quot;parallel&quot; topic t=
o the main one turned out to be the main one,<br></div><div style=3D"font-f=
amily:monospace,monospace">=E2=80=8Bmy bad.<br><br></div><div style=3D"font=
-family:monospace,monospace">Anyway, QUESTIONS!=E2=80=8B Please contribute =
to the topic.<br><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:monospace,monospace">~=
 mi&#39;e la uakci mu&#39;o re&#39;i<br></div><br>=C2=A0</div><span class=
=3D""><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><span><div>=C2=A0</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;bor=
der-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>Metonyms ar=
e somewhat related to metaphors;</div><div>they are the usage of an object =
in a sentence instead of something of that object.</div><div>For example, i=
n the sentence &quot;Orders came in from the office&quot;, even though &quo=
t;office&quot; really stands for &quot;boss&quot; (or something), &quot;off=
ice&quot; is used because it has some relation to &quot;boss&quot;.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>If we were to translate this sentence to Lojban with the =
metonym usage, we&#39;d get</div><div>{ lo briju cu minde }.</div><div>Beca=
use Lojban is a logical language to some extent, it&#39;s incorrect to say =
that -- offices don&#39;t give orders.</div><div>Just like { mi cizra }, wh=
ich needs a {jai} (because I&#39;m not an event), { lo briju cu minde } sho=
uld also be fixed with a {jai}-like cmavo, X. X, contrary to {jai}, would b=
e in SE (because we don&#39;t need to use the {jai}-plus-sumtcita feature).=
<br></div><div>In order to fix the example, we&#39;d say {zo&#39;ei lo brij=
u cu minde} (which is not very natural), or, using X, {lo briju cu X minde}=
.</div><div><br></div><div>Explaining it with a simple relation might help:=
</div><div><br></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospace">=C2=A0tu&#39;=
a : jai : (kai&#39;a) ::</font></div><div><font face=3D"monospace, monospac=
e">zoi&#39;e : =C2=A0X =C2=A0: =C2=A0 =C2=A0Y</font></div><div><br></div><d=
iv><font face=3D"arial, helvetica, sans-serif">It&#39;s also worth consider=
ing the Y, because it could be useful.</font></div><div><font face=3D"arial=
, helvetica, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font face=3D"arial, helveti=
ca, sans-serif">~ mi&#39;e la uakci mu&#39;o</font></div></div></blockquote=
></span></div></blockquote></span></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></di=
v></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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