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[2a00:1450:4010:c07::242]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id r197si200205wmf.2.2016.07.29.07.45.38 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 29 Jul 2016 07:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::242 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c07::242; Received: by mail-lf0-x242.google.com with SMTP id 33so5411894lfw.3 for ; Fri, 29 Jul 2016 07:45:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.25.206.146 with SMTP id e140mr12905838lfg.138.1469803537787; Fri, 29 Jul 2016 07:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.25.3.203 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Jul 2016 07:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.25.3.203 with HTTP; Fri, 29 Jul 2016 07:45:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2016 16:45:37 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: sumti-raising cmavo thingy From: Bruno Panasiewicz To: mriste Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114002f8c271d60538c74d1b X-Original-Sender: ciuak.prog@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ciuak.prog@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::242 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ciuak.prog@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - --001a114002f8c271d60538c74d1b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jul 29, 2016 3:32 PM, "Gleki Arxokuna" wrote: > > > > 2016-07-29 15:46 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz : >> >> b >> =E2=80=8Blanu blanu:=E2=80=8B >> >>> >>> >>> Em ter=C3=A7a-feira, 12 de julho de 2016 13:08:51 UTC+3, la uakci escre= veu: >>>> >>>> Hi! >>>> >>>> The other day, I was thinking, "wouldn't it be useful to have a sumti-raising infix cmavo?". >>>> In other words, wouldn't it be useful to have a cmavo that goes between the raised sumti and the rest. >>>> >>>> la solpa'i / la selpa'i / la me zi'o already discussed it over on his blog: >>>> http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/proprietor-fronting >>>> >>>> Having said that, there is this fancy word, {zo'ei} (of LAhE). >>>> It's roughly equivalent to {zo'e pe}, but more of a single word than two. >>>> While {tu'a}, {jai} and {kai'a} (from the blog post) relate to a sumti and an event, >>>> {zo'ei} is a relation between a sumti and something related to it. >>>> >>>> This brings us to metonyms. >>> >>> >>> Why is "sumti-raising" is in the topic? :) >>> Metonymy and raising are separate beasts. >> >> >> =E2=80=8B1) Not really. Metonymy relates an object to something related = to that object (well duh), >> and sumti-raising relates an object to an event related to that object. Thus, sumti-raising >> is a subset of metonymy.=E2=80=8B > > > Yes, I meant {tu'a}, which cannot work for "Plato and Shakespear are here in this room on the same shelf." The title uses metonymy. zo'o ~ mi'edo'u > >> 2) The first email reads, "This brings us to metonyms", meaning that the topic moved from sumti- >> -raising to metonymy. Oops. The "parallel" topic to the main one turned out to be the main one, >> =E2=80=8Bmy bad. >> >> Anyway, QUESTIONS!=E2=80=8B Please contribute to the topic. >> >> ~ mi'e la uakci mu'o re'i >> >> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Metonyms are somewhat related to metaphors; >>>> they are the usage of an object in a sentence instead of something of that object. >>>> For example, in the sentence "Orders came in from the office", even though "office" really stands for "boss" (or something), "office" is used because it has some relation to "boss". >>>> >>>> If we were to translate this sentence to Lojban with the metonym usage, we'd get >>>> { lo briju cu minde }. >>>> Because Lojban is a logical language to some extent, it's incorrect to say that -- offices don't give orders. >>>> Just like { mi cizra }, which needs a {jai} (because I'm not an event), { lo briju cu minde } should also be fixed with a {jai}-like cmavo, X. X, contrary to {jai}, would be in SE (because we don't need to use the {jai}-plus-sumtcita feature). >>>> In order to fix the example, we'd say {zo'ei lo briju cu minde} (which is not very natural), or, using X, {lo briju cu X minde}. >>>> >>>> Explaining it with a simple relation might help: >>>> >>>> tu'a : jai : (kai'a) :: >>>> zoi'e : X : Y >>>> >>>> It's also worth considering the Y, because it could be useful. >>>> >>>> ~ mi'e la uakci mu'o >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/q7yZbfzMa6w/unsubscribe. >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a114002f8c271d60538c74d1b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Jul 29, 2016 3:32 PM, "Gleki Arxokuna" <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
>
>
>
> 2016-07-29 15:46 GMT+03:00 Bruno Panasiewicz <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>:
>>
>> b
>> =E2=80=8Blanu blanu:=E2=80=8B
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Em ter=C3=A7a-feira, 12 de julho de 2016 13:08:51 UTC+3, la ua= kci escreveu:
>>>>
>>>> Hi!
>>>>
>>>> The other day, I was thinking, "wouldn't it be us= eful to have a sumti-raising infix cmavo?".
>>>> In other words, wouldn't it be useful to have a cmavo = that goes between the raised sumti and the rest.
>>>>
>>>> la solpa'i / la selpa'i / la me zi'o already d= iscussed it over on his blog:
>>>> http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/proprietor-fronting
>>>>
>>>> Having said that, there is this fancy word, {zo'ei} (o= f LAhE).
>>>> It's roughly equivalent to {zo'e pe}, but more of = a single word than two.
>>>> While {tu'a}, {jai} and {kai'a} (from the blog pos= t) relate to a sumti and an event,
>>>> {zo'ei} is a relation between a sumti and something re= lated to it.
>>>>
>>>> This brings us to metonyms.
>>>
>>>
>>> Why is "sumti-raising" is in the topic? :)
>>> Metonymy and raising are separate beasts.
>>
>>
>> =E2=80=8B1) Not really. Metonymy relates an object to something re= lated to that object (well duh),
>> and sumti-raising relates an object to an event related to that ob= ject. Thus, sumti-raising
>> is a subset of metonymy.=E2=80=8B
>
>
> Yes, I meant {tu'a}, which cannot work for "Plato and Shakesp= ear are here in this room on the same shelf."

The title uses metonymy. zo'o

~ mi'edo'u

>
>> 2) The first email reads, "This brings us to metonyms", = meaning that the topic moved from sumti-
>> -raising to metonymy. Oops. The "parallel" topic to the = main one turned out to be the main one,
>> =E2=80=8Bmy bad.
>>
>> Anyway, QUESTIONS!=E2=80=8B Please contribute to the topic.
>>
>> ~ mi'e la uakci mu'o re'i
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>>
>>> =C2=A0
>>>>
>>>> Metonyms are somewhat related to metaphors;
>>>> they are the usage of an object in a sentence instead of s= omething of that object.
>>>> For example, in the sentence "Orders came in from the= office", even though "office" really stands for "boss&= quot; (or something), "office" is used because it has some relati= on to "boss".
>>>>
>>>> If we were to translate this sentence to Lojban with the m= etonym usage, we'd get
>>>> { lo briju cu minde }.
>>>> Because Lojban is a logical language to some extent, it= 9;s incorrect to say that -- offices don't give orders.
>>>> Just like { mi cizra }, which needs a {jai} (because I'= ;m not an event), { lo briju cu minde } should also be fixed with a {jai}-l= ike cmavo, X. X, contrary to {jai}, would be in SE (because we don't ne= ed to use the {jai}-plus-sumtcita feature).
>>>> In order to fix the example, we'd say {zo'ei lo br= iju cu minde} (which is not very natural), or, using X, {lo briju cu X mind= e}.
>>>>
>>>> Explaining it with a simple relation might help:
>>>>
>>>> =C2=A0tu'a : jai : (kai'a) ::
>>>> zoi'e : =C2=A0X =C2=A0: =C2=A0 =C2=A0Y
>>>>
>>>> It's also worth considering the Y, because it could be= useful.
>>>>
>>>> ~ mi'e la uakci mu'o
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in= the Google Groups "lojban" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/= d/topic/lojban/q7yZbfzMa6w/unsubscribe.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email t= o lojban+unsubscri= be@googlegroups.com.
>>
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to lojba= n+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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