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From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 08:44:33 -0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Please, support proposal for a Lojban StackExchange site
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No, that I missed it suggests that they themselves still consider their
target audience to be programmers.  Look, I'm not against question sites.
I'm a contributor to quora.com, for example.  But take a look at
stackexchange's demographics.  They reach about 27 million unique visitors
per month.  90% are male (do we really want lojban to be more male-loaded
than it already is?), and 26% are in the united states (source:
quantcast.com). Is that all we want to reach?  (yes, 73% of those are also
in the sweet spot of 18-44yo) Email, OTOH, is read every day by about 1.2
billion people (out of the 4.3 billion who have it), and ISTM that if it's
on a subject matter you are interested, you actually will read it. (case in
point-- you are reading this, aren't you?)

And I agree that for asking a question, perhaps a mailing list isn't the
best.  When I have a specific question, though, I don't limit myself to one
site (and now that I have seen it, I have indeed read specific Q/A on
stackexchange from time to time).  I use a search engine to see who has
an/the best answer..

Like I said, I have no objection to you guys adding it to stackexchange, I
just question why you would think that's better than email.

                     --gejyspa


On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 12:08 AM, Alex Kozhevnikov <alexkoz@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Been lurking here for about two years since my last post, but this
> just had to be replied to.
>
> StackExchange is _the_ Q&A site - anyone who's interested in the
> growth of Lojban should seriously explore/grok StackExchange,
> preferably on a sub-site for a subject which interests them, before
> dismissing this, because it would definitely help that cause.
>
> Look, I'm 25, and I've been comfortable with email and email lists
> like this for a long time. But for the majority of my age-peers, email
> itself is this tertiary, neglected communication medium that they're
> not exactly eager to use for regular communication. And email
> distribution lists like this one? Of everyone I personally know, _no
> one_ would chose a mailing list over StackExchange as a medium for
> asking question in the pursuit of learning a new language. Here's an
> example: I just tried asking my partner which she would prefer: she
> doesn't really like or frequent StackExchange - but it took a good 20
> minutes before she even understood what this kind of mailing list is,
> let alone why anyone would want such a thing. I'm willing to blame
> about half of that on me starting out with the assumption that she
> knew/remembered what it was and thus not zeroing in on how to explain
> it quickly enough, but it's illustrative. Mailing lists list this are
> _alien_ to the population cohort that's taking over now. StackExchange
> isn't a common household name like facebook yet, but it's not foreign
> either.
>
> karis: In terms of awareness/visibility, the current options are to
> StackExchange like a candle is to a star. In terms of leaving a useful
> record for the future, there's no real comparison. There are other
> issues: because I often don't have time to read every lojban mailing
> list email, I end up tuning them all out: that effect doesn't happen
> with a StackExchange, because it's not a stream into your inbox, it's
> a directory of questions with relevant answers, indexed by topic and
> sorted by quality (as collectively determined by the masses). The real
> question is how will the newcomers to the StackExchange discover this
> mailing list, which I think _does_ offer value that a StackExchange
> doesn't.
>
> When I first joined this mailing list a few years ago, I asked if
> dotside was widely accepted/used. I asked a question about signing
> names and the exact arguments in favor of the slightly different ways
> that I saw people signing their names. If I ever knew how to
> find/search publicly available archives for this mailing list for
> those questions, I don't remember how to do so now. Nor ever seen it
> show up in a search engine query about it: but I do know that if there
> was a lojban.stackexchange.com, it would be trivial to search for, it
> would almost certainly start to show up on the first page of search
> results for relevant keywords, and it would even be automatically
> suggested to someone who starts typing up a similar question on the
> site. A new StackExchange site will have vastly more exposure than
> this mailing list, simply by sheer volume of traffic already going
> there, the fact that it already has communities interested in both
> natlangs and conlangs to whom mailing lists are about as
> accessible/comfortable as floppy disks and cassette tapes, the fact
> that popular questions get recommended/linked across all StackExchange
> sites, and search-engine exposure (the vast majority of the time if
> I'm looking for information about something that there's a
> StackExchange site for, the StackExchange results show up first - the
> only exceptions I can think of are obscure open-source technical
> discussions, where very well established mailing lists with well-known
> highly-ranked-in-search-engines web-accessible archives occasionally
> still win out, sometimes.
>
> gejyspa: It was after two (moderately long) sentences. That you missed
> it suggests to me a serious bias against allocating another second or
> two to genuinely properly evaluate the new thing being presented to
> you, and/or towards dismissing it out-of-hand. And honestly, that you
> think your 30+ years is an argument for its obscurity is
> eyebrow-raising to me. Accumulating experience naturally means you'd
> have less reason to seek out something like StackExchange than a new
> software developer. And if you've had decades to develop a skillset
> for acquiring knowledge in the absence of a resource like
> StackOverflow/StackExchange, that would clearly reduce the likelihood
> of finding it after it did appear: if you answer your questions by
> reading the documentation/manpages, testing it out, reading through
> the source-code and/or disassembly, stepping through with a debugger,
> or asking another coworker, etc, and are comfortable enough navigating
> that set of options, there's no reason why you'd ever find it.
> Meanwhile the modern youth type their questions in a search engine in
> obtusely natural-language sentences, and hope for the best. Which,
> with the growth of things like StackExchange, has gradually become an
> actually viable strategy.
>
> Regards,
> mu'o mi'e la .a,lekSANdr.koJEVni,kov. do'u
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">No, that I missed it suggests that they themselves still c=
onsider their target audience to be programmers.=C2=A0 Look, I&#39;m not ag=
ainst question sites.=C2=A0 I&#39;m a contributor to <a href=3D"http://quor=
a.com">quora.com</a>, for example.=C2=A0 But take a look at stackexchange&#=
39;s demographics.=C2=A0 They reach about 27 million unique visitors per mo=
nth. =C2=A090% are male (do we really want lojban to be more male-loaded th=
an it already is?), and 26% are in the united states (source: <a href=3D"ht=
tp://quantcast.com">quantcast.com</a>). Is that all we want to reach? =C2=
=A0(yes, 73% of those are also in the sweet spot of 18-44yo) Email, OTOH, i=
s read every day by about 1.2 billion people (out of the 4.3 billion who ha=
ve it), and ISTM that if it&#39;s on a subject matter you are interested, y=
ou actually will read it. (case in point-- you are reading this, aren&#39;t=
 you?)<div><br></div><div>And I agree that for asking a question, perhaps a=
 mailing list isn&#39;t the best.=C2=A0 When I have a specific question, th=
ough, I don&#39;t limit myself to one site (and now that I have seen it, I =
have indeed read specific Q/A on stackexchange from time to time).=C2=A0 I =
use a search engine to see who has an/the best answer..</div><div><br></div=
><div>Like I said, I have no objection to you guys adding it to stackexchan=
ge, I just question why you would think that&#39;s better than email.<br></=
div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa</div><div><br></div></div><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 12:=
08 AM, Alex Kozhevnikov <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alexkoz@gma=
il.com" target=3D"_blank">alexkoz@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex">Been lurking here for about two years since my las=
t post, but this<br>
just had to be replied to.<br>
<br>
StackExchange is _the_ Q&amp;A site - anyone who&#39;s interested in the<br=
>
growth of Lojban should seriously explore/grok StackExchange,<br>
preferably on a sub-site for a subject which interests them, before<br>
dismissing this, because it would definitely help that cause.<br>
<br>
Look, I&#39;m 25, and I&#39;ve been comfortable with email and email lists<=
br>
like this for a long time. But for the majority of my age-peers, email<br>
itself is this tertiary, neglected communication medium that they&#39;re<br=
>
not exactly eager to use for regular communication. And email<br>
distribution lists like this one? Of everyone I personally know, _no<br>
one_ would chose a mailing list over StackExchange as a medium for<br>
asking question in the pursuit of learning a new language. Here&#39;s an<br=
>
example: I just tried asking my partner which she would prefer: she<br>
doesn&#39;t really like or frequent StackExchange - but it took a good 20<b=
r>
minutes before she even understood what this kind of mailing list is,<br>
let alone why anyone would want such a thing. I&#39;m willing to blame<br>
about half of that on me starting out with the assumption that she<br>
knew/remembered what it was and thus not zeroing in on how to explain<br>
it quickly enough, but it&#39;s illustrative. Mailing lists list this are<b=
r>
_alien_ to the population cohort that&#39;s taking over now. StackExchange<=
br>
isn&#39;t a common household name like facebook yet, but it&#39;s not forei=
gn<br>
either.<br>
<br>
karis: In terms of awareness/visibility, the current options are to<br>
StackExchange like a candle is to a star. In terms of leaving a useful<br>
record for the future, there&#39;s no real comparison. There are other<br>
issues: because I often don&#39;t have time to read every lojban mailing<br=
>
list email, I end up tuning them all out: that effect doesn&#39;t happen<br=
>
with a StackExchange, because it&#39;s not a stream into your inbox, it&#39=
;s<br>
a directory of questions with relevant answers, indexed by topic and<br>
sorted by quality (as collectively determined by the masses). The real<br>
question is how will the newcomers to the StackExchange discover this<br>
mailing list, which I think _does_ offer value that a StackExchange<br>
doesn&#39;t.<br>
<br>
When I first joined this mailing list a few years ago, I asked if<br>
dotside was widely accepted/used. I asked a question about signing<br>
names and the exact arguments in favor of the slightly different ways<br>
that I saw people signing their names. If I ever knew how to<br>
find/search publicly available archives for this mailing list for<br>
those questions, I don&#39;t remember how to do so now. Nor ever seen it<br=
>
show up in a search engine query about it: but I do know that if there<br>
was a <a href=3D"http://lojban.stackexchange.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">lojban.stackexchange.com</a>, it would be trivial to search for=
, it<br>
would almost certainly start to show up on the first page of search<br>
results for relevant keywords, and it would even be automatically<br>
suggested to someone who starts typing up a similar question on the<br>
site. A new StackExchange site will have vastly more exposure than<br>
this mailing list, simply by sheer volume of traffic already going<br>
there, the fact that it already has communities interested in both<br>
natlangs and conlangs to whom mailing lists are about as<br>
accessible/comfortable as floppy disks and cassette tapes, the fact<br>
that popular questions get recommended/linked across all StackExchange<br>
sites, and search-engine exposure (the vast majority of the time if<br>
I&#39;m looking for information about something that there&#39;s a<br>
StackExchange site for, the StackExchange results show up first - the<br>
only exceptions I can think of are obscure open-source technical<br>
discussions, where very well established mailing lists with well-known<br>
highly-ranked-in-search-<wbr>engines web-accessible archives occasionally<b=
r>
still win out, sometimes.<br>
<br>
gejyspa: It was after two (moderately long) sentences. That you missed<br>
it suggests to me a serious bias against allocating another second or<br>
two to genuinely properly evaluate the new thing being presented to<br>
you, and/or towards dismissing it out-of-hand. And honestly, that you<br>
think your 30+ years is an argument for its obscurity is<br>
eyebrow-raising to me. Accumulating experience naturally means you&#39;d<br=
>
have less reason to seek out something like StackExchange than a new<br>
software developer. And if you&#39;ve had decades to develop a skillset<br>
for acquiring knowledge in the absence of a resource like<br>
StackOverflow/StackExchange, that would clearly reduce the likelihood<br>
of finding it after it did appear: if you answer your questions by<br>
reading the documentation/manpages, testing it out, reading through<br>
the source-code and/or disassembly, stepping through with a debugger,<br>
or asking another coworker, etc, and are comfortable enough navigating<br>
that set of options, there&#39;s no reason why you&#39;d ever find it.<br>
Meanwhile the modern youth type their questions in a search engine in<br>
obtusely natural-language sentences, and hope for the best. Which,<br>
with the growth of things like StackExchange, has gradually become an<br>
actually viable strategy.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e la .a,lekSANdr.koJEVni,kov. do&#39;u<br>
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
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=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/<wbr>optout</=
a>.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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