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From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 08:46:38 -0400
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkQfKD2x-Sfd+uVPmi9kgq+SSBdxWZq5Yv4=frDHNNdt4A@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Please, support proposal for a Lojban StackExchange site
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On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
wrote:

> No, that I missed it suggests that they themselves still consider their
> target audience to be programmers.  Look, I'm not against question sites.
> I'm a contributor to quora.com, for example.  But take a look at
> stackexchange's demographics.  They reach about 27 million unique visitors
> per month (And, I notice, 24 million of that are specifically to
> stackoverflow).  90% are male (do we really want lojban to be more
> male-loaded than it already is?), and 26% are in the united states (source:
> quantcast.com). Is that all we want to reach?  (yes, 73% of those are
> also in the sweet spot of 18-44yo) Email, OTOH, is read every day by about
> 1.2 billion people (out of the 4.3 billion who have it), and ISTM that if
> it's on a subject matter you are interested, you actually will read it.
> (case in point-- you are reading this, aren't you?)
>
> And I agree that for asking a question, perhaps a mailing list isn't the
> best.  When I have a specific question, though, I don't limit myself to one
> site (and now that I have seen it, I have indeed read specific Q/A on
> stackexchange from time to time).  I use a search engine to see who has
> an/the best answer..
>
> Like I said, I have no objection to you guys adding it to stackexchange, I
> just question why you would think that's better than email.
>
>                      --gejyspa
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 12:08 AM, Alex Kozhevnikov <alexkoz@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Been lurking here for about two years since my last post, but this
>> just had to be replied to.
>>
>> StackExchange is _the_ Q&A site - anyone who's interested in the
>> growth of Lojban should seriously explore/grok StackExchange,
>> preferably on a sub-site for a subject which interests them, before
>> dismissing this, because it would definitely help that cause.
>>
>> Look, I'm 25, and I've been comfortable with email and email lists
>> like this for a long time. But for the majority of my age-peers, email
>> itself is this tertiary, neglected communication medium that they're
>> not exactly eager to use for regular communication. And email
>> distribution lists like this one? Of everyone I personally know, _no
>> one_ would chose a mailing list over StackExchange as a medium for
>> asking question in the pursuit of learning a new language. Here's an
>> example: I just tried asking my partner which she would prefer: she
>> doesn't really like or frequent StackExchange - but it took a good 20
>> minutes before she even understood what this kind of mailing list is,
>> let alone why anyone would want such a thing. I'm willing to blame
>> about half of that on me starting out with the assumption that she
>> knew/remembered what it was and thus not zeroing in on how to explain
>> it quickly enough, but it's illustrative. Mailing lists list this are
>> _alien_ to the population cohort that's taking over now. StackExchange
>> isn't a common household name like facebook yet, but it's not foreign
>> either.
>>
>> karis: In terms of awareness/visibility, the current options are to
>> StackExchange like a candle is to a star. In terms of leaving a useful
>> record for the future, there's no real comparison. There are other
>> issues: because I often don't have time to read every lojban mailing
>> list email, I end up tuning them all out: that effect doesn't happen
>> with a StackExchange, because it's not a stream into your inbox, it's
>> a directory of questions with relevant answers, indexed by topic and
>> sorted by quality (as collectively determined by the masses). The real
>> question is how will the newcomers to the StackExchange discover this
>> mailing list, which I think _does_ offer value that a StackExchange
>> doesn't.
>>
>> When I first joined this mailing list a few years ago, I asked if
>> dotside was widely accepted/used. I asked a question about signing
>> names and the exact arguments in favor of the slightly different ways
>> that I saw people signing their names. If I ever knew how to
>> find/search publicly available archives for this mailing list for
>> those questions, I don't remember how to do so now. Nor ever seen it
>> show up in a search engine query about it: but I do know that if there
>> was a lojban.stackexchange.com, it would be trivial to search for, it
>> would almost certainly start to show up on the first page of search
>> results for relevant keywords, and it would even be automatically
>> suggested to someone who starts typing up a similar question on the
>> site. A new StackExchange site will have vastly more exposure than
>> this mailing list, simply by sheer volume of traffic already going
>> there, the fact that it already has communities interested in both
>> natlangs and conlangs to whom mailing lists are about as
>> accessible/comfortable as floppy disks and cassette tapes, the fact
>> that popular questions get recommended/linked across all StackExchange
>> sites, and search-engine exposure (the vast majority of the time if
>> I'm looking for information about something that there's a
>> StackExchange site for, the StackExchange results show up first - the
>> only exceptions I can think of are obscure open-source technical
>> discussions, where very well established mailing lists with well-known
>> highly-ranked-in-search-engines web-accessible archives occasionally
>> still win out, sometimes.
>>
>> gejyspa: It was after two (moderately long) sentences. That you missed
>> it suggests to me a serious bias against allocating another second or
>> two to genuinely properly evaluate the new thing being presented to
>> you, and/or towards dismissing it out-of-hand. And honestly, that you
>> think your 30+ years is an argument for its obscurity is
>> eyebrow-raising to me. Accumulating experience naturally means you'd
>> have less reason to seek out something like StackExchange than a new
>> software developer. And if you've had decades to develop a skillset
>> for acquiring knowledge in the absence of a resource like
>> StackOverflow/StackExchange, that would clearly reduce the likelihood
>> of finding it after it did appear: if you answer your questions by
>> reading the documentation/manpages, testing it out, reading through
>> the source-code and/or disassembly, stepping through with a debugger,
>> or asking another coworker, etc, and are comfortable enough navigating
>> that set of options, there's no reason why you'd ever find it.
>> Meanwhile the modern youth type their questions in a search engine in
>> obtusely natural-language sentences, and hope for the best. Which,
>> with the growth of things like StackExchange, has gradually become an
>> actually viable strategy.
>>
>> Regards,
>> mu'o mi'e la .a,lekSANdr.koJEVni,kov. do'u
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "lojban" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>

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Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Michael Turniansky <span dir=3D"ltr">&=
lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mturniansky@g=
mail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=
=3D"ltr">No, that I missed it suggests that they themselves still consider =
their target audience to be programmers.=C2=A0 Look, I&#39;m not against qu=
estion sites.=C2=A0 I&#39;m a contributor to <a href=3D"http://quora.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">quora.com</a>, for example.=C2=A0 But take a look at stack=
exchange&#39;s demographics.=C2=A0 They reach about 27 million unique visit=
ors per month<font color=3D"#ff0000"> (And, I notice, 24 million of that ar=
e specifically to stackoverflow). </font>=C2=A090% are male (do we really w=
ant lojban to be more male-loaded than it already is?), and 26% are in the =
united states (source: <a href=3D"http://quantcast.com" target=3D"_blank">q=
uantcast.com</a>). Is that all we want to reach? =C2=A0(yes, 73% of those a=
re also in the sweet spot of 18-44yo) Email, OTOH, is read every day by abo=
ut 1.2 billion people (out of the 4.3 billion who have it), and ISTM that i=
f it&#39;s on a subject matter you are interested, you actually will read i=
t. (case in point-- you are reading this, aren&#39;t you?)<div><br></div><d=
iv>And I agree that for asking a question, perhaps a mailing list isn&#39;t=
 the best.=C2=A0 When I have a specific question, though, I don&#39;t limit=
 myself to one site (and now that I have seen it, I have indeed read specif=
ic Q/A on stackexchange from time to time).=C2=A0 I use a search engine to =
see who has an/the best answer..</div><div><br></div><div>Like I said, I ha=
ve no objection to you guys adding it to stackexchange, I just question why=
 you would think that&#39;s better than email.<br></div><div><br></div><div=
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0--gejyspa</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"=
h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 1=
6, 2016 at 12:08 AM, Alex Kozhevnikov <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:alexkoz@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">alexkoz@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Been lurking here for about two year=
s since my last post, but this<br>
just had to be replied to.<br>
<br>
StackExchange is _the_ Q&amp;A site - anyone who&#39;s interested in the<br=
>
growth of Lojban should seriously explore/grok StackExchange,<br>
preferably on a sub-site for a subject which interests them, before<br>
dismissing this, because it would definitely help that cause.<br>
<br>
Look, I&#39;m 25, and I&#39;ve been comfortable with email and email lists<=
br>
like this for a long time. But for the majority of my age-peers, email<br>
itself is this tertiary, neglected communication medium that they&#39;re<br=
>
not exactly eager to use for regular communication. And email<br>
distribution lists like this one? Of everyone I personally know, _no<br>
one_ would chose a mailing list over StackExchange as a medium for<br>
asking question in the pursuit of learning a new language. Here&#39;s an<br=
>
example: I just tried asking my partner which she would prefer: she<br>
doesn&#39;t really like or frequent StackExchange - but it took a good 20<b=
r>
minutes before she even understood what this kind of mailing list is,<br>
let alone why anyone would want such a thing. I&#39;m willing to blame<br>
about half of that on me starting out with the assumption that she<br>
knew/remembered what it was and thus not zeroing in on how to explain<br>
it quickly enough, but it&#39;s illustrative. Mailing lists list this are<b=
r>
_alien_ to the population cohort that&#39;s taking over now. StackExchange<=
br>
isn&#39;t a common household name like facebook yet, but it&#39;s not forei=
gn<br>
either.<br>
<br>
karis: In terms of awareness/visibility, the current options are to<br>
StackExchange like a candle is to a star. In terms of leaving a useful<br>
record for the future, there&#39;s no real comparison. There are other<br>
issues: because I often don&#39;t have time to read every lojban mailing<br=
>
list email, I end up tuning them all out: that effect doesn&#39;t happen<br=
>
with a StackExchange, because it&#39;s not a stream into your inbox, it&#39=
;s<br>
a directory of questions with relevant answers, indexed by topic and<br>
sorted by quality (as collectively determined by the masses). The real<br>
question is how will the newcomers to the StackExchange discover this<br>
mailing list, which I think _does_ offer value that a StackExchange<br>
doesn&#39;t.<br>
<br>
When I first joined this mailing list a few years ago, I asked if<br>
dotside was widely accepted/used. I asked a question about signing<br>
names and the exact arguments in favor of the slightly different ways<br>
that I saw people signing their names. If I ever knew how to<br>
find/search publicly available archives for this mailing list for<br>
those questions, I don&#39;t remember how to do so now. Nor ever seen it<br=
>
show up in a search engine query about it: but I do know that if there<br>
was a <a href=3D"http://lojban.stackexchange.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">lojban.stackexchange.com</a>, it would be trivial to search for=
, it<br>
would almost certainly start to show up on the first page of search<br>
results for relevant keywords, and it would even be automatically<br>
suggested to someone who starts typing up a similar question on the<br>
site. A new StackExchange site will have vastly more exposure than<br>
this mailing list, simply by sheer volume of traffic already going<br>
there, the fact that it already has communities interested in both<br>
natlangs and conlangs to whom mailing lists are about as<br>
accessible/comfortable as floppy disks and cassette tapes, the fact<br>
that popular questions get recommended/linked across all StackExchange<br>
sites, and search-engine exposure (the vast majority of the time if<br>
I&#39;m looking for information about something that there&#39;s a<br>
StackExchange site for, the StackExchange results show up first - the<br>
only exceptions I can think of are obscure open-source technical<br>
discussions, where very well established mailing lists with well-known<br>
highly-ranked-in-search-engine<wbr>s web-accessible archives occasionally<b=
r>
still win out, sometimes.<br>
<br>
gejyspa: It was after two (moderately long) sentences. That you missed<br>
it suggests to me a serious bias against allocating another second or<br>
two to genuinely properly evaluate the new thing being presented to<br>
you, and/or towards dismissing it out-of-hand. And honestly, that you<br>
think your 30+ years is an argument for its obscurity is<br>
eyebrow-raising to me. Accumulating experience naturally means you&#39;d<br=
>
have less reason to seek out something like StackExchange than a new<br>
software developer. And if you&#39;ve had decades to develop a skillset<br>
for acquiring knowledge in the absence of a resource like<br>
StackOverflow/StackExchange, that would clearly reduce the likelihood<br>
of finding it after it did appear: if you answer your questions by<br>
reading the documentation/manpages, testing it out, reading through<br>
the source-code and/or disassembly, stepping through with a debugger,<br>
or asking another coworker, etc, and are comfortable enough navigating<br>
that set of options, there&#39;s no reason why you&#39;d ever find it.<br>
Meanwhile the modern youth type their questions in a search engine in<br>
obtusely natural-language sentences, and hope for the best. Which,<br>
with the growth of things like StackExchange, has gradually become an<br>
actually viable strategy.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
mu&#39;o mi&#39;e la .a,lekSANdr.koJEVni,kov. do&#39;u<br>
<div><div><br>
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a>.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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