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Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 11:39:53 -0700
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Please, support proposal for a Lojban StackExchange site
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>> 90% are male (do we really want lojban to be more male-loaded than it al=
ready is?), and 26% are in the united states (source: quantcast.com). Is th=
at all we want to reach?  (yes, 73% of those are also in the sweet spot of =
18-44yo)

Wow, seriously? Making a Stack Exchange site for lojban is not mutually exc=
lusive to other channels. Our community should not care *what* a nintadni i=
s, just that they are interested in Lojban. Anyone is free to suggest more =
channels for spreading the word about Lojban, and providing more visibility=
 and utility to the community.

I think it's sad that the lojban community harbors such shame for our demog=
raphic reach. Lojban has no rules about who can and cannot participate, and=
 that is exactly as it should be. All are welcome, as long as they understa=
nd that it takes work, interest, and engagement to learn the language.

I think the StackExchange proposal is a great idea! It will provide a searc=
hable and structured way to answer oft-times complex or controversial quest=
ions about lojban.

Kyle Roucis
www.kyleroucis.com

> On Aug 16, 2016, at 05:46, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wro=
te:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 8:44 AM, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.c=
om> wrote:
>> No, that I missed it suggests that they themselves still consider their =
target audience to be programmers.  Look, I'm not against question sites.  =
I'm a contributor to quora.com, for example.  But take a look at stackexcha=
nge's demographics.  They reach about 27 million unique visitors per month =
(And, I notice, 24 million of that are specifically to stackoverflow).  90%=
 are male (do we really want lojban to be more male-loaded than it already =
is?), and 26% are in the united states (source: quantcast.com). Is that all=
 we want to reach?  (yes, 73% of those are also in the sweet spot of 18-44y=
o) Email, OTOH, is read every day by about 1.2 billion people (out of the 4=
.3 billion who have it), and ISTM that if it's on a subject matter you are =
interested, you actually will read it. (case in point-- you are reading thi=
s, aren't you?)
>>=20
>> And I agree that for asking a question, perhaps a mailing list isn't the=
 best.  When I have a specific question, though, I don't limit myself to on=
e site (and now that I have seen it, I have indeed read specific Q/A on sta=
ckexchange from time to time).  I use a search engine to see who has an/the=
 best answer..
>>=20
>> Like I said, I have no objection to you guys adding it to stackexchange,=
 I just question why you would think that's better than email.
>>=20
>>                      --gejyspa
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 12:08 AM, Alex Kozhevnikov <alexkoz@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>>> Been lurking here for about two years since my last post, but this
>>> just had to be replied to.
>>>=20
>>> StackExchange is _the_ Q&A site - anyone who's interested in the
>>> growth of Lojban should seriously explore/grok StackExchange,
>>> preferably on a sub-site for a subject which interests them, before
>>> dismissing this, because it would definitely help that cause.
>>>=20
>>> Look, I'm 25, and I've been comfortable with email and email lists
>>> like this for a long time. But for the majority of my age-peers, email
>>> itself is this tertiary, neglected communication medium that they're
>>> not exactly eager to use for regular communication. And email
>>> distribution lists like this one? Of everyone I personally know, _no
>>> one_ would chose a mailing list over StackExchange as a medium for
>>> asking question in the pursuit of learning a new language. Here's an
>>> example: I just tried asking my partner which she would prefer: she
>>> doesn't really like or frequent StackExchange - but it took a good 20
>>> minutes before she even understood what this kind of mailing list is,
>>> let alone why anyone would want such a thing. I'm willing to blame
>>> about half of that on me starting out with the assumption that she
>>> knew/remembered what it was and thus not zeroing in on how to explain
>>> it quickly enough, but it's illustrative. Mailing lists list this are
>>> _alien_ to the population cohort that's taking over now. StackExchange
>>> isn't a common household name like facebook yet, but it's not foreign
>>> either.
>>>=20
>>> karis: In terms of awareness/visibility, the current options are to
>>> StackExchange like a candle is to a star. In terms of leaving a useful
>>> record for the future, there's no real comparison. There are other
>>> issues: because I often don't have time to read every lojban mailing
>>> list email, I end up tuning them all out: that effect doesn't happen
>>> with a StackExchange, because it's not a stream into your inbox, it's
>>> a directory of questions with relevant answers, indexed by topic and
>>> sorted by quality (as collectively determined by the masses). The real
>>> question is how will the newcomers to the StackExchange discover this
>>> mailing list, which I think _does_ offer value that a StackExchange
>>> doesn't.
>>>=20
>>> When I first joined this mailing list a few years ago, I asked if
>>> dotside was widely accepted/used. I asked a question about signing
>>> names and the exact arguments in favor of the slightly different ways
>>> that I saw people signing their names. If I ever knew how to
>>> find/search publicly available archives for this mailing list for
>>> those questions, I don't remember how to do so now. Nor ever seen it
>>> show up in a search engine query about it: but I do know that if there
>>> was a lojban.stackexchange.com, it would be trivial to search for, it
>>> would almost certainly start to show up on the first page of search
>>> results for relevant keywords, and it would even be automatically
>>> suggested to someone who starts typing up a similar question on the
>>> site. A new StackExchange site will have vastly more exposure than
>>> this mailing list, simply by sheer volume of traffic already going
>>> there, the fact that it already has communities interested in both
>>> natlangs and conlangs to whom mailing lists are about as
>>> accessible/comfortable as floppy disks and cassette tapes, the fact
>>> that popular questions get recommended/linked across all StackExchange
>>> sites, and search-engine exposure (the vast majority of the time if
>>> I'm looking for information about something that there's a
>>> StackExchange site for, the StackExchange results show up first - the
>>> only exceptions I can think of are obscure open-source technical
>>> discussions, where very well established mailing lists with well-known
>>> highly-ranked-in-search-engines web-accessible archives occasionally
>>> still win out, sometimes.
>>>=20
>>> gejyspa: It was after two (moderately long) sentences. That you missed
>>> it suggests to me a serious bias against allocating another second or
>>> two to genuinely properly evaluate the new thing being presented to
>>> you, and/or towards dismissing it out-of-hand. And honestly, that you
>>> think your 30+ years is an argument for its obscurity is
>>> eyebrow-raising to me. Accumulating experience naturally means you'd
>>> have less reason to seek out something like StackExchange than a new
>>> software developer. And if you've had decades to develop a skillset
>>> for acquiring knowledge in the absence of a resource like
>>> StackOverflow/StackExchange, that would clearly reduce the likelihood
>>> of finding it after it did appear: if you answer your questions by
>>> reading the documentation/manpages, testing it out, reading through
>>> the source-code and/or disassembly, stepping through with a debugger,
>>> or asking another coworker, etc, and are comfortable enough navigating
>>> that set of options, there's no reason why you'd ever find it.
>>> Meanwhile the modern youth type their questions in a search engine in
>>> obtusely natural-language sentences, and hope for the best. Which,
>>> with the growth of things like StackExchange, has gradually become an
>>> actually viable strategy.
>>>=20
>>> Regards,
>>> mu'o mi'e la .a,lekSANdr.koJEVni,kov. do'u
>>>=20
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou=
ps "lojban" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send =
an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>=20
>=20
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an=
 email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--=20
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=
=3Dutf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-color=
: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><font color=3D"#=
000000"><span style=3D"background-color: rgba(255, 255, 255, 0);">90% are m=
ale (do we really want lojban to be more male-loaded than it already is?), =
and 26% are in the united states (source:&nbsp;<a href=3D"http://quantcast.=
com" target=3D"_blank">quantcast.com</a>). Is that all we want to reach? &n=
bsp;(yes, 73% of those are also in the sweet spot of 18-44yo)</span></font>=
</div></blockquote></div></div></div></blockquote><div id=3D"AppleMailSigna=
ture"><br></div>Wow, seriously? Making a Stack Exchange site for lojban is =
not mutually exclusive to other channels. Our community should not care *wh=
at* a nintadni is, just that they are interested in Lojban. Anyone is free =
to suggest more channels for spreading the word about Lojban, and providing=
 more visibility and utility to the community.</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSig=
nature"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">I think it's sad that the =
lojban community harbors such shame for our demographic reach. Lojban has n=
o rules about who can and cannot participate, and that is exactly as it sho=
uld be. All are welcome, as long as they understand that it takes work, int=
erest, and engagement to learn the language.</div><div id=3D"AppleMailSigna=
ture"><br></div><div id=3D"AppleMailSignature">I think the StackExchange pr=
oposal is a great idea! It will provide a searchable and structured way to =
answer oft-times complex or controversial questions about lojban.<br><br>Ky=
le Roucis<div><a href=3D"http://www.kyleroucis.com">www.kyleroucis.com</a><=
/div></div><div><br>On Aug 16, 2016, at 05:46, Michael Turniansky &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:mturniansky@gmail.com">mturniansky@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 16, 2016 at 8:4=
4 AM, Michael Turniansky <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mturniansk=
y@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">mturniansky@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<=
br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">No, that I missed it sug=
gests that they themselves still consider their target audience to be progr=
ammers.&nbsp; Look, I'm not against question sites.&nbsp; I'm a contributor=
 to <a href=3D"http://quora.com" target=3D"_blank">quora.com</a>, for examp=
le.&nbsp; But take a look at stackexchange's demographics.&nbsp; They reach=
 about 27 million unique visitors per month<font color=3D"#ff0000"> (And, I=
 notice, 24 million of that are specifically to stackoverflow). </font>&nbs=
p;90% are male (do we really want lojban to be more male-loaded than it alr=
eady is?), and 26% are in the united states (source: <a href=3D"http://quan=
tcast.com" target=3D"_blank">quantcast.com</a>). Is that all we want to rea=
ch? &nbsp;(yes, 73% of those are also in the sweet spot of 18-44yo) Email, =
OTOH, is read every day by about 1.2 billion people (out of the 4.3 billion=
 who have it), and ISTM that if it's on a subject matter you are interested=
, you actually will read it. (case in point-- you are reading this, aren't =
you?)<div><br></div><div>And I agree that for asking a question, perhaps a =
mailing list isn't the best.&nbsp; When I have a specific question, though,=
 I don't limit myself to one site (and now that I have seen it, I have inde=
ed read specific Q/A on stackexchange from time to time).&nbsp; I use a sea=
rch engine to see who has an/the best answer..</div><div><br></div><div>Lik=
e I said, I have no objection to you guys adding it to stackexchange, I jus=
t question why you would think that's better than email.<br></div><div><br>=
</div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp;--gejyspa</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div =
class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On T=
ue, Aug 16, 2016 at 12:08 AM, Alex Kozhevnikov <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:alexkoz@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">alexkoz@gmail.com</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Been lurking here for about=
 two years since my last post, but this<br>
just had to be replied to.<br>
<br>
StackExchange is _the_ Q&amp;A site - anyone who's interested in the<br>
growth of Lojban should seriously explore/grok StackExchange,<br>
preferably on a sub-site for a subject which interests them, before<br>
dismissing this, because it would definitely help that cause.<br>
<br>
Look, I'm 25, and I've been comfortable with email and email lists<br>
like this for a long time. But for the majority of my age-peers, email<br>
itself is this tertiary, neglected communication medium that they're<br>
not exactly eager to use for regular communication. And email<br>
distribution lists like this one? Of everyone I personally know, _no<br>
one_ would chose a mailing list over StackExchange as a medium for<br>
asking question in the pursuit of learning a new language. Here's an<br>
example: I just tried asking my partner which she would prefer: she<br>
doesn't really like or frequent StackExchange - but it took a good 20<br>
minutes before she even understood what this kind of mailing list is,<br>
let alone why anyone would want such a thing. I'm willing to blame<br>
about half of that on me starting out with the assumption that she<br>
knew/remembered what it was and thus not zeroing in on how to explain<br>
it quickly enough, but it's illustrative. Mailing lists list this are<br>
_alien_ to the population cohort that's taking over now. StackExchange<br>
isn't a common household name like facebook yet, but it's not foreign<br>
either.<br>
<br>
karis: In terms of awareness/visibility, the current options are to<br>
StackExchange like a candle is to a star. In terms of leaving a useful<br>
record for the future, there's no real comparison. There are other<br>
issues: because I often don't have time to read every lojban mailing<br>
list email, I end up tuning them all out: that effect doesn't happen<br>
with a StackExchange, because it's not a stream into your inbox, it's<br>
a directory of questions with relevant answers, indexed by topic and<br>
sorted by quality (as collectively determined by the masses). The real<br>
question is how will the newcomers to the StackExchange discover this<br>
mailing list, which I think _does_ offer value that a StackExchange<br>
doesn't.<br>
<br>
When I first joined this mailing list a few years ago, I asked if<br>
dotside was widely accepted/used. I asked a question about signing<br>
names and the exact arguments in favor of the slightly different ways<br>
that I saw people signing their names. If I ever knew how to<br>
find/search publicly available archives for this mailing list for<br>
those questions, I don't remember how to do so now. Nor ever seen it<br>
show up in a search engine query about it: but I do know that if there<br>
was a <a href=3D"http://lojban.stackexchange.com" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=
=3D"_blank">lojban.stackexchange.com</a>, it would be trivial to search for=
, it<br>
would almost certainly start to show up on the first page of search<br>
results for relevant keywords, and it would even be automatically<br>
suggested to someone who starts typing up a similar question on the<br>
site. A new StackExchange site will have vastly more exposure than<br>
this mailing list, simply by sheer volume of traffic already going<br>
there, the fact that it already has communities interested in both<br>
natlangs and conlangs to whom mailing lists are about as<br>
accessible/comfortable as floppy disks and cassette tapes, the fact<br>
that popular questions get recommended/linked across all StackExchange<br>
sites, and search-engine exposure (the vast majority of the time if<br>
I'm looking for information about something that there's a<br>
StackExchange site for, the StackExchange results show up first - the<br>
only exceptions I can think of are obscure open-source technical<br>
discussions, where very well established mailing lists with well-known<br>
highly-ranked-in-search-engine<wbr>s web-accessible archives occasionally<b=
r>
still win out, sometimes.<br>
<br>
gejyspa: It was after two (moderately long) sentences. That you missed<br>
it suggests to me a serious bias against allocating another second or<br>
two to genuinely properly evaluate the new thing being presented to<br>
you, and/or towards dismissing it out-of-hand. And honestly, that you<br>
think your 30+ years is an argument for its obscurity is<br>
eyebrow-raising to me. Accumulating experience naturally means you'd<br>
have less reason to seek out something like StackExchange than a new<br>
software developer. And if you've had decades to develop a skillset<br>
for acquiring knowledge in the absence of a resource like<br>
StackOverflow/StackExchange, that would clearly reduce the likelihood<br>
of finding it after it did appear: if you answer your questions by<br>
reading the documentation/manpages, testing it out, reading through<br>
the source-code and/or disassembly, stepping through with a debugger,<br>
or asking another coworker, etc, and are comfortable enough navigating<br>
that set of options, there's no reason why you'd ever find it.<br>
Meanwhile the modern youth type their questions in a search engine in<br>
obtusely natural-language sentences, and hope for the best. Which,<br>
with the growth of things like StackExchange, has gradually become an<br>
actually viable strategy.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
mu'o mi'e la .a,lekSANdr.koJEVni,kov. do'u<br>
<div><div><br>
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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