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[104.47.36.60]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o123si1351739ith.3.2016.08.16.19.02.09 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 16 Aug 2016 19:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au designates 104.47.36.60 as permitted sender) client-ip=104.47.36.60; Received: from CO2PR01MB2087.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.166.91.18) by CO2PR01MB2088.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.166.91.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA_P384) id 15.1.557.21; Wed, 17 Aug 2016 02:02:06 +0000 Received: from CO2PR01MB2087.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.166.91.18]) by CO2PR01MB2087.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.166.91.18]) with mapi id 15.01.0557.022; Wed, 17 Aug 2016 02:02:06 +0000 From: Timothy Lawrence To: lojban Subject: Re: [lojban] taking action Thread-Topic: [lojban] taking action Thread-Index: AQHR8O7FmhHWBbgDPk2wELjIFZjrraBLNX+AgAExixE= Date: Wed, 17 Aug 2016 02:02:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: ,<1a0c0381-39f2-4120-90b5-9f69bbd37938@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <1a0c0381-39f2-4120-90b5-9f69bbd37938@googlegroups.com> Accept-Language: en-AU, en-US Content-Language: en-AU X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [25.163.96.4] x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6463c755-187c-4c53-e998-08d3c6427dbb x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;CO2PR01MB2088;6:JrxlqDnkAMQwwojbuJoDGTEpG8Y3O9U+sj4fBJDHyO5nUG+Oo7S2MESI5E7AjzlPBfxQUNrNQ9mkHcCVHpUcf9jXkVumBjcqD7kJ9MkBuEcksLvWWiAbN9zu0lLC1G+EbOPFUjgMLrHWzWY2dYLLP0esK85Cm6/3gdCRX061wHPXpD2bXgKA+z7Qc9esTXu3fFnB0MI87VguA4wXOgGwTeUsLo6hMMSNZQ2wqeJ5MoTmNLZMcqI88fRXeWEYXTRirgRrWl2p4/X74X6FKe1O0dg8xFu8gzfFQogqdkJj5Ys=;5:Cgf+GwXdH09fcxUWBzni+WTZ2iCVrh0Rp5iJZ53q0vcpR+RdeesIoBozbPmfGCkDroHaOYZfWh9nvMEn3TVQhzf8+Y0VXUo5M3YogTkhpztUfSp73XPf8itlPtMfX1JoBEAOVpbvPU7WpNk/lkfu9A==;24:TiV8KAjb2ol77JbToS6QqbTCKBsm58NhqasLRoHT5fpC2Sn5Fkjubmir4IoF03/Y1IFJpdCXgog1bdPdmBnfICWRWLPgkz1mi3Ek/pkYjds=;7:aV490hGWQKCgCyqBR99OcxlpguVBgDTiBpzN6jCVRaSwSOhblaqtqBoXSpu8mYnFHhQlqH22yI1dAJV34UHJVidqXxGcQzaWKVcKEENKFfqK0c4tUqlnfmm+usm8f/zyc/jgv9dsAwaqm3IycsJw9DojnMq8ezna9PpXWspeTrzHU9fdrKnzfU8hP7+aGKWJDzIxXNp29yEVboLexfEcTchpawAr39BaYEBZ4NhHUiYOEy8KjTvmQInM8Lm+HII1 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CO2PR01MB2088; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(215639381216008)(228788266533470)(211936372134217)(5213294742642); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(6040176)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(3002001)(10201501046);SRVR:CO2PR01MB2088;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CO2PR01MB2088; x-forefront-prvs: 0037FD6480 x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10009020)(7916002)(377454003)(189002)(199003)(74482002)(19580405001)(106116001)(2906002)(450100001)(77096005)(19580395003)(97736004)(16236675004)(19625215002)(33656002)(10400500002)(102836003)(16799955002)(2950100001)(76176999)(92566002)(2900100001)(50986999)(86362001)(101416001)(15975445007)(54356999)(5002640100001)(88552002)(87936001)(11100500001)(14971765001)(587094005)(81166006)(7736002)(16297215004)(7696003)(19617315012)(7846002)(106356001)(9686002)(81156014)(68736007)(3846002)(6116002)(586003)(110136002)(66066001)(16601075003)(3280700002)(105586002)(19627405001)(74316002)(189998001)(122556002)(8676002)(3660700001)(8936002)(107886002)(7906003);DIR:OUT;SFP:1101;SCL:1;SRVR:CO2PR01MB2088;H:CO2PR01MB2087.prod.exchangelabs.com;FPR:;SPF:None;PTR:InfoNoRecords;MX:1;A:1;LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: connect.qut.edu.au does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CO2PR01MB208780058A56E046A4F3CEC4EB140CO2PR01MB2087prod_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: connect.qut.edu.au X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 17 Aug 2016 02:02:06.8042 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: dc0b52a3-68c5-44f7-881d-9383d8850b96 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CO2PR01MB2088 X-Original-Sender: timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au designates 104.47.36.60 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=qut.edu.au Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --_000_CO2PR01MB208780058A56E046A4F3CEC4EB140CO2PR01MB2087prod_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable la .krtis. > How do you think that we can best organize and advertise ongoing projects= ? What implementation are you envisioning? I think the website should be used to advertise the main / endorsed project= s of Lojban. I think a web-based project-management tool should be used to organise proj= ects centrally. Phabricator is a free, open source project-management tool which has been m= entioned in the mailing list in the past. It was already used by existing projects, such as a Lojban Speech Recogniti= on Tool mentioned June last year - what happened to that? We could have http://projects.lojban.org set up with a Phabricator instance= that anyone can use for all Lojban projects. It can also be used to review content, which I think is quite important so = that teams can keep things organised, centralised and official. See below a= bout my website ideas. This would also be really useful for proofreading Lo= jban works and providing feedback directly on the relevant lines. Phabricat= or can also be integrated with Git so it can share hosting with GitHub, thu= s it could also host the CLL project etc.. I suggest Phabricator because I use it for managing my development of a gam= e that I will be publishing with Lojban as an available language, so I have= found it to be good, but I welcome alternative suggestions. la .altair. > lojban's overall web presence is extremely confusing. I just can't easil= y figure out which sites I'm supposed to read, which are archival, which ar= e redundant, which are talking about older versions, etc. I agree the web presence is confusing. To me, this is because the main webs= ite appears, to me, to be very disorganised. This is probably a side-effect of anyone being able to add anything to the = main site wiki I want to reorganise things but I don't want to break the status quo of the= wiki. I personally think a smaller well-organised website with only official cont= ent should be developed. Every change should be code-reviewed (as above) an= d translated into all target languages, so that no language version of the = site "falls behind" in translations. The current wiki website could be moved to http://wiki.lojban.org or someth= ing like that, then linked to by the main website with the caveat that it's= not official content. In terms of demographics, we could really expand the audience by ensuring a= ll Lojban.org official content stays very translated. Just look at how old/= different this is, compared to the English page: https://mw.lojban.org/inde= x.php?title=3DLojban&setlang=3Dde I know this is proposing a lot of work so I offer my help here (I develop w= ebsites). I have drafted up the beginnings of a website and have been looki= ng into translation methodologies - neither of these are ready to show yet = but, if the community is interested in this, I would be happy to work with = a website team to organise this for the future. I will also help with (reasonable) hosting costs, if that helps. mi'e la.timoteios. ________________________________ From: lojban@googlegroups.com on behalf of Curtis= Franks Sent: Tuesday, 16 August 2016 4:59 PM To: lojban Subject: [lojban] taking action coi mi'e la .krtis. How do you think that we can best organize and advertise ongoing projects? = What implementation are you envisioning? ___ As a particular note, I would add that if a reward system dried up, then in= terest in helping a project can basically only dry up to the point at where= we currently are. In a sense, we are at our lowest, which has the advantag= e that the inly direction from here is up (or, at least, not down). We have= a great opportunity to innovate and we should not fear worst-case scenario= s because we are almost there already in many ways. Moreover, for this spec= ific concern, developing investment in the outcome of a project by initiall= y rewarding participation monetarily may actually motivate a sustained inte= rest in its progress regardless of the continuation of that monetary reward= . But I do see the advantages in making small "thank you"-note-like gifts a= nd larger-scale, less guaranteed, competitive reward systems (like a Nobel = Prize). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --_000_CO2PR01MB208780058A56E046A4F3CEC4EB140CO2PR01MB2087prod_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

la .krtis.

> How do you think that we can best organize and advertise on= going projects? What implementation are you envisioning?


I think the website should be used to advertise the main / endorsed=  projects of Lojban.


I think a web-based project-management tool should be used to organise projects centrally.


Phabricator is a free, open source project-management to= ol which has been mentioned in the mailing list in the past.

It was already used by existing projects, such as <= span>a Lojban Speech Recognition Tool mentioned June last year<= /span> - what happened to that?


We could have http://projects.lojban.orgPhabricator can also be integrated with Git so i= t can share hosting with GitHub, thus it could also host the CLL proje= ct etc..


I suggest Phabricator because I use it for managing my devel= opment of a game that I will be publishing with Lojban as an avai= lable language, so I have found it to be good, but I welcome alte= rnative suggestions.



la .altair.

>  lojban's overall web presence is extremely confusing.= I just can't easily figure out which sites I'm supposed to read, which are= archival, which are redundant, which are talking about older versions, etc= . 


I agree the web presence is confusing. To me, this is because the m= ain website appears, to me, to be very disorganised. 

This is probably a side-effect of anyone being able to ad= d anything to the main site wiki 


I want to reorganise things but I don't want to break the status quo of = the wiki.


I personally think a smaller well-organised website with only official c= ontent should be developed. Every change should be code-reviewed (as above)= and translated into all target languages, so that no language version= of the site "falls behind" in translations.


The current wiki website could be moved to http://wiki.lojban.org or something like that, then linked to by&n= bsp;the main website with the caveat that it's not official content.


In terms of demographics, we could really expand the audience by e= nsuring all Lojban.org official content stays very translated. Just look at= how old/different this is, compared to the English page: https://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3DLojban&setlang=3Dde<= br>


I know this is proposing a lot of work so I offer my help here (I d= evelop websites). I have drafted up the beginnings of a website and ha= ve been looking into translation methodologies - neither of these= are ready to show yet but, if the community is interested in this, I would be happy to work with a website team to organise this for= the future.


I will also help with (reasonable) hosting costs, if that helps.


mi'e la.timoteios.


From: lojban@googlegroups= .com <lojban@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Curtis Franks <curtis.= w.franks@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 16 August 2016 4:59 PM
To: lojban
Subject: [lojban] taking action
 
coi mi'e la .krtis.

How do you think that we can best organize and advertise ongoing projects? = What implementation are you envisioning?

___

As a particular note, I would add that if a reward system dried up, then in= terest in helping a project can basically only dry up to the point at where= we currently are. In a sense, we are at our lowest, which has the advantag= e that the inly direction from here is up (or, at least, not down). We have a great opportunity to innovate an= d we should not fear worst-case scenarios because we are almost there alrea= dy in many ways. Moreover, for this specific concern, developing investment= in the outcome of a project by initially rewarding participation monetarily may actually motivate a susta= ined interest in its progress regardless of the continuation of that moneta= ry reward. But I do see the advantages in making small "thank you"= ;-note-like gifts and larger-scale, less guaranteed, competitive reward systems (like a Nobel Prize).

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.

For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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