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[2a01:111:f400:fe45::607]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m19si871840itb.0.2016.08.22.05.16.31 for (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 22 Aug 2016 05:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au designates 2a01:111:f400:fe45::607 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a01:111:f400:fe45::607; Received: from CO2PR01MB2087.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.166.91.18) by CO2PR01MB2088.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.166.91.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA_P384) id 15.1.557.21; Mon, 22 Aug 2016 12:16:19 +0000 Received: from CO2PR01MB2087.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.166.91.18]) by CO2PR01MB2087.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.166.91.18]) with mapi id 15.01.0557.027; Mon, 22 Aug 2016 12:16:19 +0000 From: Timothy Lawrence To: mriste Subject: Re: [lojban] taking action Thread-Topic: [lojban] taking action Thread-Index: AQHR8O7FmhHWBbgDPk2wELjIFZjrraBLNX+AgAExixGAALo+gIAA+zrRgAAvcQCABqN3Gw== Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2016 12:16:19 +0000 Message-ID: References: <1a0c0381-39f2-4120-90b5-9f69bbd37938@googlegroups.com> <79b2d2dd-52ef-47ff-8a26-e69322d52aa7@googlegroups.com> , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-AU, en-US Content-Language: en-AU X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [25.163.96.4] x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: c92bf2f9-bd55-462c-519a-08d3ca861fd1 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;CO2PR01MB2088;6:Ok0VKiClZT34pJsX1AXv8jR+DZNv1nT++b/JgpI+V2IDt86i+bMriN4X3COQ0/NWMMZoAFcYkUyc31X9QM8RPWurVkLkuBhQNml+K7wnHz/4pT/HuMnytaM1Z4gypltkoHhlQpzXaiDy4TWf6IMmNiY1pHPn8HhIEmQBkMBYxAUPOb54QCtR8r9H6/IIibBUrC1ab9Rygjhc4u7FB7sYmZoJr219UTQkVD6M7/k2bsXwqSrz4QyRn/gbzkgSJ8kITd8NT5+5abVnS2chhvhVr7HTW5m1Ulzojyu+G6tJwUg=;5:rQjXB0TO6Rq31aX67MAXiP53It2TRa5+ns6xlKG1NaF6oln8quYmeZuRljvOo/imu9UCFUbQ2xrchwzxQxaDIdy4diUpR9LI5e72FShR/w6M2Y71Df1kiWQYbXDltGUASdJ76Fwu7oEDSm0iPY/8dA==;24:LwyPelujQSHck4bc6VEccJwaQVt5002KD7vYuwNHGRO+DhkphF4zVtXIwT2C+TwDHlCV0U+mxf+M2jb0/qQ+3xw43cyHmtzv/L+SUGtdSBM=;7:Cco0/IPNI2vCh/46fpueC+yCFJ+OsoObpW0ocAUmrRbrn9qsNl6Fg4q8JGoefwiC2ifKSw9oY1iZDJUH9hGML7DpxpatUneT4MAQvAipsUGHSyOyX/SEsLRNt4uZ1mdQrNL94H5cqY9pkvurMDsSWrERzwO3mR5pieX+9BqOjJ9yMIvfGybfZcM27gJLiBidcIzdBZNVqVwWMFCYGmu1YPIIPvxrs0C2hahzSBUohKuVSA1Y5EPMpKo39omKx35e x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CO2PR01MB2088; 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received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: connect.qut.edu.au does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CO2PR01MB2087385C38A8F3D30E961FB3EBE80CO2PR01MB2087prod_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: connect.qut.edu.au X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 Aug 2016 12:16:19.3705 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: dc0b52a3-68c5-44f7-881d-9383d8850b96 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CO2PR01MB2088 X-Original-Sender: timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au designates 2a01:111:f400:fe45::607 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=qut.edu.au Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --_000_CO2PR01MB2087385C38A8F3D30E961FB3EBE80CO2PR01MB2087prod_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Definitely there is an argument for simplicity. Raw HTML and CSS is simple = from a web development perspective, and it was my first thought, but I feel= that using HTML may alienate non-web-developers. I was thinking about using a format that is even more accessible to everyon= e, perhaps Markdown, that can be used to generate the final HTML pages from= a simple template. That would separate the text content from the website structure and style, = making it more easily translatable and manageable. My suggestion for the workflow organisation utility is Phabricator because = it doesn't require users to have GitHub accounts. I think the project could= also be made available on GitHub if it is useful for others, but GitHub is= another thing that may alienate non-programmers as it has a high learning = curve. I subjectively found Phabricator more intuitive, but we may need to = trial it. Because Phabricator is open source, we could translate it to Lojban or othe= rwise customise it. It can also automate things like rebuilding the static = website whenever a change is made or new translation is committed, et ceter= a. Come to think of it, it could probably automate much of the deployment o= f various Lojban projects (including the CLL, although I don't know much ab= out its development so I am not sure). ________________________________ From: lojban@googlegroups.com on behalf of uakci = Sent: Thursday, 18 August 2016 4:08 PM To: mriste Subject: Re: [lojban] taking action I propose that it be a plain HTML site, constantly synchronizing to a Githu= b repository which, in turn, will be connected to workflow organization uti= lity. ~ mi'e co'a se tolzdi be lo nu cusku lu mi'e la uakci mu'o li'u .e lo simsa= be ri do'u mu'o ~ On Aug 18, 2016 6:02 AM, "Timothy Lawrence" > wrote: > What sorts of help do you anticipate wanting/needing? I am not knowledgeable about much of the history of Lojban and what has bee= n tried/achieved already, so I would need someone(s) advising me. I am not proficient at Lojban itself, at this stage. I am not proficient at translation workflow, or at doing translations mysel= f. Any recommendations from others (especially translators) would be apprec= iated. I would likely need assistance with any Lojban.org server systems administr= ation. I also need the explicitly defined design goals of the website, so nothing = is missed. My suggested shortlist is that the website should: - advertise Lojban effectively - provide accessible up-to-date resources for learning Lojban - be up-to-date in translations for all target languages - clarify the distinction between official and non-official information - function as a centralised nexus for the community - invite involvement in the community and connect Lojbanists - make it easy to manage community projects - have a low cognitive barrier-to-entry - work easily on both desktop and mobile From those goals, I would research to select (or build) a system that enabl= es or automates protocols/workflows for achieving those goals. I believe it's important to use software with a strict workflow from the st= art, because humans are fallible and forgetful. This will ensure adherence = to the goals never accidentally slips. This is why I personally don't think a wiki is very suitable for official i= nformation and maintaining concurrent translations. If we have a list of persons who must approve new content, for example, the= system shouldn't allow it being published until everyone from that list ha= s approved. If we have a protocol to manage translations, it should be trivial to enfor= ce that no single language version should be updated on the live website wi= thout all target language versions being updated for the change. The system= should automatically notify the appropriate translation volunteers as new = content is added, then wait for them before the new content can be committe= d. I have heard of .PO files being a popular, open-source format for translati= ons, with an established workflow, but I have not used them. Hope this helps, mi'e la.timoteios. ________________________________ From: lojban@googlegroups.com > on behalf of karis > Sent: Wednesday, 17 August 2016 10:19 PM To: lojban Subject: Re: [lojban] taking action The Board discussed some of the problems with the current website situation= , including difficulty identifying official vs not official material. I wou= ld be happy to mention you are offering to work on the mess. What sorts of = help do you anticipate wanting/needing? karis -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --_000_CO2PR01MB2087385C38A8F3D30E961FB3EBE80CO2PR01MB2087prod_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Definitely ther= e is an argument for simplicity. Raw HTML and CSS is simple from a web deve= lopment perspective, and it was my first thought, but I feel that = ;using HTML may alienate non-web-developers.

I was = thinking about using a format that is even more accessible to everyone= , perhaps Markdown, that can be used to generate the final HTML p= ages from a simple template.
That would separate the text content from the website structure and st= yle, making it more easily translatable= and manageable.

My suggestion for the workflow organisation utility is Phabricator bec= ause it doesn't require users to have GitHub accounts. I think the project&= nbsp;could also be made available on GitHub if it is useful for other= s, but GitHub is another thing that may alienate non-programmers as it has a high learning curve. I subjectively found Phabricator more intuitive, but we m= ay need to trial it.

Because Phabricator is open source, we could translate it to Lojban or othe= rwise customise it. It can also automate things like rebuilding the static = website whenever a change is made or new translation is committed, et ceter= a. Come to think of it, it could probably automate much of the deployment of various Lojban projects (inclu= ding the CLL, although I don't know much about its development so I am not = sure).

From: lojban@googlegroups= .com <lojban@googlegroups.com> on behalf of uakci <ciuak.prog@gmai= l.com>
Sent: Thursday, 18 August 2016 4:08 PM
To: mriste
Subject: Re: [lojban] taking action
 

I propose that it be a plain HTML site, constantly synchroni= zing to a Github repository which, in turn, will be connected to workflow o= rganization utility.

~ mi'e co'a se tolzdi be lo nu cusku lu mi'e la uakci mu'o l= i'u .e lo simsa be ri do'u mu'o ~


On Aug 18, 2016 6:02 AM, "Timothy Lawrence&= quot; <timothy.la= wrence@connect.qut.edu.au> wrote:

> What sorts of help do you anticipate wanting/needing?

I am not knowledgeable about much of the history of Lojban and what ha= s been tried/achieved already, so I would need someone(s) advising me.
I am not proficient at Lojban itself, at this stage.
I am not proficient at translation workflow, or at doing translations = myself. Any recommendations from others (especially translators) would= be appreciated.
I would likely need assistance with any Lojban.org server&nb= sp;systems administration.

I also need the explicitly defined design goals of the website, so nothing is m= issed.

My suggested shortlist is that the website should:

- advertise Lojban effectively
- provide accessible up-to-date resources for learning Lojban
- be up-to-date in translations for all target languages
- clarify the distinction between official and non-official informatio= n
- function as a centralised nexus for the community
- invite involvement in the community and connect Lojbanists
- make it easy to manage community projects
- have a low cognitive barrier-to-entry
- work easily on both desktop and mobile

From those goals, I would research to select (or build) a system that = enables or automates protocols/workflows for achieving those goals.

I believe it's important to use software with a strict workflow f= rom the start, because humans are fallible and forgetful. This will ensure = adherence to the goals never accidentally slips.

This is why I personally don't think a wiki is very suitable = ;for official information and maintaining concurrent translations.

If we have a list of persons who m= ust approve new content, for example, the system shouldn't allow it being pu= blished until everyone from that list has approved.

If we have a protocol to manage translations, it should be trivial to = enforce that no single language version should be updated on the live websi= te without all target language versions being updated for the change. The s= ystem should automatically notify the appropriate translation volunteers as new content is added, then wait = for them before the new content can be committed.

I have heard of .PO files being a popular, open-source format for tran= slations, with an established workflow, but I have not used them.

Hope this helps,

mi'e la.timoteios.



From: lojban@googleg= roups.com <lojban@googlegroups.com> on behalf of karis <comcaresvcs@gmail.com> Sent: Wednesday, 17 August 2016 10:19 PM
To: lojban
Subject: Re: [lojban] taking action
 
The Board discussed some of the problems with the current website situ= ation, including difficulty identifying official vs not official material. = I would be happy to mention you are offering to work on the mess. What sort= s of help do you anticipate wanting/needing?

karis

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to = lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.

For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
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