Received: from mail-qk0-f186.google.com ([209.85.220.186]:34473) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1bdQ9K-0006W5-2D for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 26 Aug 2016 16:03:04 -0700 Received: by mail-qk0-f186.google.com with SMTP id z190sf36561843qkc.1 for ; Fri, 26 Aug 2016 16:02:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=8+8IS3ACbM2D/pZbVaaXpfI2wGnsNRg2WJaqtE6RSrU=; b=qwvU6ncM5shqQrzMrfG7Q4TnRTT0q2vkDTY4qCM9eCTEj6PGcybExkloMGgsjlB2Us etrQ8tjBPUe2YQT/OSjULubtGk8dvqHUXFIttQEvJPNrIe1e0hLsrO5s+dYdzg3ZhFBO OInG2qz60sOd89vDLmN1YRq1B/ta4YPFm0qB42m6kdPR6O+HFkXk8qNeAxGS/Z7oOqGN 3hqo9yLKRFtmNQL0d19SZsG5uHTlKbuH7wNsw9HaXF93mTolAGs/VseAzQPAHZS2K8d4 c9rrhBsf97txIYietV0Gvvr/HffeQWvg7rdugkSj6WqALCopzXOD0G1YkQ6Df1RyVqq5 Yt1Q== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=8+8IS3ACbM2D/pZbVaaXpfI2wGnsNRg2WJaqtE6RSrU=; b=hdO1iv1i67l0PZGfBQvUtf92cJW9o9orsGHgDif4Phl93iIU576tBCqTI60iJJwXlW iE0qLHZDPD5aQUqR5zXjrJjeXHS/6jzfi3M6kG1I4HW6f1ASgdGgdEFK9l08DcFDH/Gk s4YcqWRIc2cV83v/O5unF8mY6oVcSfXmJSWrFihE3g6lwYVW8uf4GO7fctsltulw9xCH r8OlD8cFDlm2Vw0GAlWli1MufXNQy9tnW/uBLG4bs+a0MZgPJfjO5pqT+mb7fnP+d8L9 nO2lzTi1mKRxo4JuXUnszgbKjP8sxZyPfM7gZNhu9SAH3OibgrWlQv6EjyOTB3No9TbF OYcw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=8+8IS3ACbM2D/pZbVaaXpfI2wGnsNRg2WJaqtE6RSrU=; b=DvB9aa2uPiEdFEAkfnYp1tn9oUGfBALC8ylu71Z2n9h8l9Vkzf3vUC2fIcgvnedYoW LDXxSE7fmcjy81yk9XapmOekdLXdB+HTIIS1iF9esHdGtAnHbMUE80ykPO6+lCDNKON4 gpXTm1ee24TfoR9AEwY2rfSfzNMUZB5Qkyn6JqPjtoJvqW9gLyCTaGPTLnWPClR1HXie l+yMpS15UxL58oa/0n5ZEUzzcUQ0BGN9LdnXdZzC9Y/nzrFNgNNcDZTg0HiUF131Hmz/ 8iLAHA/TjzH7NGJOjk9AYX7jolyKICB+mFKpru+ciaWz4m/SD5sz7XRYm46MVLJMPlAg /qCg== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AE9vXwMUvmPW7pV9sbmg3OQL9dtaNEHv7JNl90ueegQ4jCgSEw7ZdGRJQ/tjHz5lm8RTCw== X-Received: by 10.157.20.143 with SMTP id d15mr493999ote.1.1472252571901; Fri, 26 Aug 2016 16:02:51 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.157.61.2 with SMTP id a2ls4302628otc.49.gmail; Fri, 26 Aug 2016 16:02:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.157.38.178 with SMTP id l47mr491499otb.13.1472252571537; Fri, 26 Aug 2016 16:02:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 16:02:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Andrew To: lojban Message-Id: <2b72a2dc-cbf9-4426-aa8a-dee3a4e30ace@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [lojban] elidable terminators and ambiguity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_3285_1726234607.1472252570825" X-Original-Sender: summerfallsaway@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_3285_1726234607.1472252570825 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3286_1858293915.1472252570831" ------=_Part_3286_1858293915.1472252570831 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The reason you can't leave out {ku} in {le mlatu ku sisku} is because it is= =20 already omitting {cu}. The longest form of this phrase would be {le mlatu= =20 ku cu sisku}. Most people pretty much always omit either {ku} or {cu}, but= =20 you need at least one between the x1 and the selbri. On Friday, August 26, 2016 at 7:37:39 AM UTC-7, la uakci wrote: > > On Aug 26, 2016 1:47 PM, > wrote: > > > > coi ro do > > > > I am trying to understand the rules for eliding terminators. > > The CLL comments on several special cases for when terminators may or= =20 > may not be elided, > > but the only general principle I can find is CLL 21.2 EBNF Grammar of= =20 > Lojban, point 10: > > > > // encloses an elidable terminator, which may be omitted (without chang= e=20 > of meaning) if no grammatical ambiguity results. > > > > Still, grammatical ambiguity doesn't seem to me to be the deciding=20 > factor. > > I agree =E2=80=94 that note is misleading. Terminators can be elided only= when the=20 > meaning doesn't change. > > > Consider these two examples. > > > > i mi noi le mlatu ku sisku keha vau kuho cu sipna vau > > I, whom the cat is seeking, am sleeping. > > This example with only the needed stuff would be =C2=ABmi noi le mlatu cu= sisku=20 > tu'a ke'a cu sipna=C2=BB. > > > The "ku" should be elidable, because when it is omitted, there is only= =20 > one possible place to insert it -- no grammatical ambiguity. > > No, once the =C2=ABku=C2=BB is removed, we get =C2=ABmlatu sisku=C2=BB, w= hich is a tanru. > > > But, a parser says it cannot be elided, and it does look somehow strang= e=20 > with the "ku" omitted. > > In this case, you can also use =C2=ABcu=C2=BB. But you can't drop both. > > > > > i le mlatu poi xekri vau kuho cu sipna vau > > The black cat sleeps. > > This example would be =C2=ABle mlatu poi xekri cu sipna=C2=BB. > > > > > The "le mlatu" needs a "ku" that can go in one of two places, before or= =20 > after the relative clause. > > Relative clauses follow the LE-clause, so =C2=ABku=C2=BB is assumed autom= agically. > > > These choices are semantically equivalent, but grammatically=20 > (syntactically) different. > > You can look at the parse trees and see they are different. > > Still, the parser says that eliding this "ku" is OK. > > > > Why? Why kind of ambiguity is CLL talking about here? > > > > mihe la bremenli nohu Vincent Broman > > ~ uakci > > > --=20 > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 > Groups "lojban" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= =20 > an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . > > To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com=20 > . > > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_3286_1858293915.1472252570831 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The reason you can't leave out {ku} in {le mlatu ku si= sku} is because it is already omitting {cu}. The longest form of this phras= e would be {le mlatu ku cu sisku}. Most people pretty much always omit eith= er {ku} or {cu}, but you need at least one between the x1 and the selbri.
On Friday, August 26, 2016 at 7:37:39 AM UTC-7, la uakci wrote:

On Aug 26, 2016 1:47 PM, <vpbr...@gmail.com> wrote: >
> coi ro do
>
> I am trying to understand the rules for eliding terminators.
> The CLL comments on several special cases for when terminators may or = may not be elided,
> but the only general principle I can find is CLL 21.2 EBNF Grammar of = Lojban, point 10:
>
> // encloses an elidable terminator, which may be omitted (without chan= ge of meaning) if no grammatical ambiguity results.
>
> Still, grammatical ambiguity doesn't seem to me to be the deciding= factor.

I agree =E2=80=94 that note is misleading. Terminators can b= e elided only when the meaning doesn't change.

> Consider these two examples.
>
> i mi noi le mlatu ku sisku keha vau kuho cu sipna vau
> I, whom the cat is seeking, am sleeping.

This example with only the needed stuff would be =C2=ABmi no= i le mlatu cu sisku tu'a ke'a cu sipna=C2=BB.

> The "ku" should be elidable, because when it = is omitted, there is only one possible place to insert it -- no grammatical= ambiguity.

No, once the =C2=ABku=C2=BB is removed, we get =C2=ABmlatu s= isku=C2=BB, which is a tanru.

> But, a parser says it cannot be elided, and it does loo= k somehow strange with the "ku" omitted.

In this case, you can also use =C2=ABcu=C2=BB. But you can&#= 39;t drop both.

>
> i le mlatu poi xekri vau kuho cu sipna vau
> The black cat sleeps.

This example would be =C2=ABle mlatu poi xekri cu sipna=C2= =BB.

>
> The "le mlatu" needs a "ku" that can go in one of = two places, before or after the relative clause.

Relative clauses follow the LE-clause, so =C2=ABku=C2=BB is = assumed automagically.

> These choices are semantically equivalent, but grammati= cally (syntactically) different.
> You can look at the parse trees and see they are different.
> Still, the parser says that eliding this "ku" is OK.
>
> Why? Why kind of ambiguity is CLL talking about here?
>
> mihe la bremenli nohu Vincent Broman

~ uakci

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://group= s.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google= .com/d/optout.

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