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Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2016 19:55:41 +0000 (UTC)
From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] the death of this place
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While I am not sure what "more interesting" logics Logjam can't handle, the=
 general point here seems about right. =C2=A0That machine translation has t=
aken the down and dirty bilingual approach rather the interlingual is unfor=
tunate (in the long run and for broader uses) but has always been the case.=
 =C2=A0The rest pretty much follows. =C2=A0Of course, going to a better "lo=
gical language" won't help that situation much, nor the international langu=
age one. =C2=A0Still, it remains an ideal that Loglan (and so Lojban) threw=
 away on day one and that could be developed from scratch (well, bits and p=
ieces of it have been done over on engelang over the years). =C2=A0Starting=
 from a developed logic (say a Montague intensional system) and proceeding =
by reversible transformations step by step, one could achieve a speakable l=
anguage fairly quickly. =C2=A0Certainly more quickly than the Logjam proced=
ure of starting with a speakable language (i.e. basically English with stra=
nge flourishes) and trying to build something like a logical system out of =
it (60 years and still not certainly successful). Of course, just what cons=
titutes a speakable language (and just why an intensional logic lexicalized=
 isn't one) constitutes an initial problem to be dealt with early on, as do=
es the exact formulation of the logic, since there are several competitors,=
 not all obviously equivalent. =C2=A0A nice task for another couple generat=
ions, not, happily, mine any more. =C2=A0pycyn, from before creation. =C2=
=A0=20

    On Sunday, September 11, 2016 1:33 PM, Thomas Porter <osiris_hades_deat=
hland@hotmail.com> wrote:
=20

 #yiv7902445184 #yiv7902445184 -- P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}#yiv7902=
445184 What did you expect to happen?
Lojban serves no purpose as a scientific endeavor since the Sapir-Worf Hypo=
thesis has been discredited by other means. It serves no purpose as a machi=
ne interlanguage because artificial intelligence projects are focusing on n=
atural language processing. It serves little purpose as spoken logic becaus=
e it can't handle more complex or "interesting" logics.=C2=A0And it has nev=
er, despite some people's desires, been suited as an international auxiliar=
y language.
Lojban is a hobby language with an aging community that has little time for=
 hobbies.=C2=A0

If anything, this is a sign that we need to begin a new logical language th=
at learns from the failures of the Loglan and Lojban projects.--=20
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  =20

--=20
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<html><head></head><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; f=
ont-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, =
sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1473616657802_12438=
"><span id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1473616657802_12631">While I am not sure wh=
at "more interesting" logics Logjam can't handle, the general point here se=
ems about right. &nbsp;That machine translation has taken the down and dirt=
y bilingual approach rather the interlingual is unfortunate (in the long ru=
n and for broader uses) but has always been the case. &nbsp;The rest pretty=
 much follows. &nbsp;Of course, going to a better "logical language" won't =
help that situation much, nor the international language one. &nbsp;Still, =
it remains an ideal that Loglan (and so Lojban) threw away on day one and t=
hat could be developed from scratch (well, bits and pieces of it have been =
done over on engelang over the years). &nbsp;Starting from a developed logi=
c (say a Montague intensional system) and proceeding by reversible transfor=
mations step by step, one could achieve a speakable language fairly quickly=
. &nbsp;Certainly more quickly than the Logjam procedure of starting with a=
 speakable language (i.e. basically English with strange flourishes) and tr=
ying to build something like a logical system out of it (60 years and still=
 not certainly successful). Of course, just what constitutes a speakable la=
nguage (and just why an intensional logic lexicalized isn't one) constitute=
s an initial problem to be dealt with early on, as does the exact formulati=
on of the logic, since there are several competitors, not all obviously equ=
ivalent. &nbsp;A nice task for another couple generations, not, happily, mi=
ne any more. &nbsp;</span></div><div id=3D"yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1473616657802_=
12438"><span>pycyn, from before creation. &nbsp;</span></div> <div class=3D=
"qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class=3D"yahoo_quoted" style=3D"display:=
 block;"> <div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helveti=
ca, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div style=3D"font=
-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sa=
ns-serif; font-size: 16px;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Aria=
l"> On Sunday, September 11, 2016 1:33 PM, Thomas Porter &lt;osiris_hades_d=
eathland@hotmail.com&gt; wrote:<br></font></div>  <br><br> <div class=3D"y_=
msg_container"><div id=3D"yiv7902445184"><style type=3D"text/css">#yiv79024=
45184 #yiv7902445184 -- P {margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0;}#yiv7902445184 </s=
tyle><div dir=3D"ltr">
<div id=3D"yiv7902445184divtagdefaultwrapper" style=3D"font-size:12pt;color=
:#000000;background-color:#FFFFFF;font-family:Calibri, Arial, Helvetica, sa=
ns-serif;">
<div>What did you expect to happen?</div>
<div><br clear=3D"none">
</div>
<div><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;">Lojban serves no purpose as a scientif=
ic endeavor since the Sapir-Worf Hypothesis has been discredited by other m=
eans. It serves no purpose as a machine interlanguage because artificial in=
telligence projects are focusing on
 natural language processing. It serves little purpose as spoken logic beca=
use it can't handle more complex or "interesting" logics.&nbsp;</span><span=
 style=3D"font-size:12pt;">And it has never, despite some people's desires,=
 been suited as an international auxiliary
 language.</span></div>
<div><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;"><br clear=3D"none">
</span></div>
<div><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Ar=
ial, Helvetica, sans-serif,;">Lojban is a hobby language with an
 aging community that has little time for hobbies.&nbsp;</span><br clear=3D=
"none">
</span></div>
<div><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Ar=
ial, Helvetica, sans-serif,;"><br clear=3D"none">
</span></span></div>
<div><span style=3D"font-size:12pt;"><span style=3D"font-family:Calibri, Ar=
ial, Helvetica, sans-serif,;">If anything, this is a sign that we
 need to begin a new logical language that learns from the failures of the =
Loglan and Lojban projects.</span></span></div>
</div><div class=3D"yiv7902445184yqt7263515736" id=3D"yiv7902445184yqtfd793=
35">
</div></div><div class=3D"yiv7902445184yqt7263515736" id=3D"yiv7902445184yq=
tfd19725"><div><div></div>

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>  </div></div></body></html>

<p></p>

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