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[104.47.40.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 142si3651822pfx.2.2016.09.15.21.18.19 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 15 Sep 2016 21:18:19 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au designates 104.47.40.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=104.47.40.43; Received: from CO2PR01MB2087.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.166.91.18) by CO2PR01MB2086.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.166.91.17) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA_P384) id 15.1.619.10; Fri, 16 Sep 2016 04:18:19 +0000 Received: from CO2PR01MB2087.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.166.91.18]) by CO2PR01MB2087.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.166.91.18]) with mapi id 15.01.0619.010; Fri, 16 Sep 2016 04:18:19 +0000 From: Timothy Lawrence To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Subject: Re: [lojban] BPFK has approved cmavo swaps Thread-Topic: [lojban] BPFK has approved cmavo swaps Thread-Index: AQHSDP/OhBCWrNBbmESxCeSTOZw7uaB6fkUXgADiiME= Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 04:18:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <07b91787-b69f-ea70-4015-8ae40e17297e@gmx.de> <141d21c1-9421-2e8f-2ad6-2056e507f49c@gmx.de>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-AU, en-US Content-Language: en-AU X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [25.163.96.4] x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 2c2208b3-aef4-46af-a578-08d3dde87d35 x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;CO2PR01MB2086;6:2W5feuF0VVI/hKWa7/wowNCjglBLbTfnBlOdq7Wlwx4NpG0GSE8o6UbmJsmbczUSzSlx5sMCiYWGWsKA9ngEnk8WzAxw+SZvdzH/kTc7yRLVxHewcutQFmq5wn2pz70rjnq6WuaAS8L89D+vpG0RlouEO6SMUWDJ6G6hrnQ6peo8uO3/YROfOqzzKhxolrJVMv5snTuBxDxGfqz8pg4DgBphSme9UL3fWBprjajYlz4erwOimRSNkWo5wvx1gOwtgPZeNMDl6aHlwONrFNsHpLlAXjQkR2EftgFuJ0r19i4=;5:8pNgeTu4zi8KcIy2bmmVNR08H+PQ/paR6mDy1gwC9CMeSy9JIi4fd2UMjf7AkpxVwGVFwqpVHruasXdoh20EBihKQdwxzS907f4Rrq+2bBxmnuc17rLqJkQbbAiN/aYRZzB7JJ1/Gu9ZLyH20xYa4A==;24:5wI8yVCHDlyjyMBodiRy0F/KLIQuvzrBINhVDczB5fLUK8XWKejkIqiZvHAjpLkdDnbvbkJ0cPHgqforJBJpMEpOpcjsi1C6b2rrlSPLup4=;7:FbqZt2doHy1C1eZ5PVmDdqvQ7peuHiMsBq+scu8Cq546VJX2wfyTpcoSNPFWt6OUXgVJIpolyStJac83ep/ppDdifW0RklwUWdQMzH6hcupFniJcTxN1tZNsAqHn/TLWt4uHlzD1PEnjGfZ7+ZD3MkYbhM0wdGegp0tnjmGCAXVnUnjowh7TNRHB3R267KPpMZoJwvSx0TgA+IVUvWZCEuQEltR7W9t7kOCkxPhhfFLCjDPCX7JublNOlKC30Az4 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CO2PR01MB2086; 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received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: connect.qut.edu.au does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CO2PR01MB208709C291F3DF9151F3584BEBF30CO2PR01MB2087prod_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: connect.qut.edu.au X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Sep 2016 04:18:18.8878 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: dc0b52a3-68c5-44f7-881d-9383d8850b96 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CO2PR01MB2086 X-Original-Sender: timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au designates 104.47.40.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=qut.edu.au Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --_000_CO2PR01MB208709C291F3DF9151F3584BEBF30CO2PR01MB2087prod_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > I am not confident in my ability to produce *correct* lojban, and so feel= a bit of an imposter. Thus: I lurk. I think a lot of learners feel like they would be imposing, but it is a mas= sive catch-22: if they don't "impose" they won't get good enough that they'= ll no longer be "imposing". The same has happened to me, so I've tried to g= et more active :) I would like the website to more explicitly encourage would-be lurkers to g= et active and participate, not fearing making mistakes. This is what I have= meant with my ideas about a formalised mentoring process. It doesn't have = to be mentoring per se, but just an explicit "talk to people! connect!" in = the website somewhere. There really are so many people who very kindly love= helping others learn Lojban. Humans are social animals, so we can't sustain motivation to learn a langua= ge alone indefinitely. My experience has been that others love beginners jo= ining the community and trying (regardless of any mistakes). > I'm simply not up to that level of fluency yet on the creation side. In martial arts, sometimes beginners use a sparring dummy before practising= with real persons. Lojban, being a language suitable for human-computer in= teraction, could have a dumb chatbot for "sparring" practice before talking= with real persons. I did a really basic mockup here to show the concept ht= tps://jsfiddle.net/gxextk82/10/ Once a user has exhausted its repertoire of= phrases, the bot could recommended the user should connect with the commun= ity now that they feel a bit more confident. Anyone, let me know if you want to collaborate on such a project. > I've considered doing some software development to create a better workfl= ow for, say, posting a blog in the language you're learning and easily allo= wing others to comment/correct specific parts Such software exists already (e.g. Phabricator, or GitHub, or any normal co= de review software). la suzanys and I are hoping to push for a Phabricator platform that will he= lp facilitate this and other Lojbanic projects :) We might be able to all c= ollaborate on a publication together. ________________________________ From: lojban@googlegroups.com on behalf of Joshua= Proehl Sent: Thursday, 15 September 2016 1:33 PM To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] BPFK has approved cmavo swaps most people seem to simply ignore everything that happens. Many people only ever speak up when they have something to complain about (= usually whenever something appears to be changing). Why do none of those pe= ople ever participate in anything constructive? Why has everyone been ignor= ing la uakci's many attempts at getting the community to participate in thi= ngs like his interactive story or the weekly poems? I read the mailing lists, and I enjoy the practice of reading content in Lo= jban. However I am not confident in my ability to produce *correct* lojban,= and so feel a bit of an imposter. Thus: I lurk. It's a problem I've had both in learning Lojban and German. Learning to pro= duce (write/speak) the language is a completely different skillset than lea= rning to understand it, and requires a lot of feedback and corrections. Nei= ther of the mailing lists are the place for that sort of content, nor a par= ticularly good medium. Were I to contribute content in lojban for poems/new= sletters it would place a significant editing burden on somebody, as I'm si= mply not up to that level of fluency yet on the creation side. (Solving this problem seems non-trivial. I've considered doing some softwar= e development to create a better workflow for, say, posting a blog in the l= anguage you're learning and easily allowing others to comment/correct speci= fic parts, but in order to be valuable you need the community of fluent spe= akers to dedicate time to making corrections/comments reliably, and I'm not= sure if Lojban has the critical mass to make it worth developing.) I appreciate the content! It's wonderful! Were there a "upvote" button on e= mail I would utilize it, but I agree with Timothy Lawrence that it's an ema= il/mailing-list etiquette issue. More content to learn from is *always* app= reciated though, for the record! :-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --_000_CO2PR01MB208709C291F3DF9151F3584BEBF30CO2PR01MB2087prod_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

> I am not confident in my ability to prod= uce *correct* lojban, and so feel a bit of an imposter. Thus: I lurk. 

I think a lot of learners feel like they would be imposing, but it is a massive catch-22: if they don't "impose" they won't = get good enough that they'll no longer be "imposing". The same ha= s happened to me, so I've tried to get more active :)

I would like the website to more explicitly encourage would-be lurkers to g= et active and participate, not fearing making mistakes. This is what I have= meant with my ideas about a formalised mentoring process. It doesn't have = to be mentoring per se, but just an explicit "talk to people! connect!" in the website somewhere.= There really are so many people who very kindly love helping others learn = Lojban.

Humans are social animals, so we can't sustain motivation to=  learn a language alone indefinitely. My experience has been that others love beg= inners joining the community and trying (regardless of any mistakes).<= /span>


> I'm simply not up to that level of fluen= cy yet on the creation side. 

In martial arts, sometimes beginners use a sparring dummy before practis= ing with real persons. Lojban, being a language suitable for human-com= puter interaction, could have a dumb&= nbsp;chatbot for "sparring" practice before talking with real persons. I did a&nb= sp;really basic mockup here to show the concept htt= ps://jsfiddle.net/gxextk82/10/ Once a user has exhausted its repertoire of phrases, the bot could recommended the user should&= nbsp;connect with the community now that they feel a bit more confiden= t.


Anyone, let me know if you want to= collaborate on such a project.



> I've considered doing some software developmen= t to create a better workflow for, say, posting a blog in the language you'= re learning and easily allowing others to comment/correct specific parts


Such software exists already (e.g. Phabricator, or GitHub, or = any normal code review software).


la suzanys and I are hoping to push for a Phabricator platform t= hat will help facilitate this and other Lojbanic projects :) We might be ab= le to all collaborate on a publication together.



From: lojban@googlegroups.c= om <lojban@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Joshua Proehl <joshua.pr= oehl@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 15 September 2016 1:33 PM
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] BPFK has approved cmavo swaps
 

 most people seem to simply ignore everything that happens.

Many people only ever speak up when they have something to complain about (= usually whenever something appears to be changing). Why do none of those pe= ople ever participate in anything constructive? Why has everyone been ignor= ing la uakci's many attempts at getting the community to participate in things like his interactive story = or the weekly poems?


I read the mailing lists, and I enjoy the practice of reading content = in Lojban. However I am not confident in my ability to produce *correct* lo= jban, and so feel a bit of an imposter. Thus: I lurk.

It's a problem I've had both in learning Lojban and German. Learning t= o produce (write/speak) the language is a completely different skillset tha= n learning to understand it, and requires a lot of feedback and corrections= . Neither of the mailing lists are the place for that sort of content, nor a particularly good medium. Were I= to contribute content in lojban for poems/newsletters it would place a sig= nificant editing burden on somebody, as I'm simply not up to that level of = fluency yet on the creation side.

(Solving this problem seems non-trivial. I've considered doing some softwar= e development to create a better workflow for, say, posting a blog in the l= anguage you're learning and easily allowing others to comment/correct speci= fic parts, but in order to be valuable you need the community of fluent speakers to dedicate time to making corre= ctions/comments reliably, and I'm not sure if Lojban has the critical mass = to make it worth developing.)

I appreciate the content! It's wonderful! Were there a "upvote&qu= ot; button on email I would utilize it, but I agree with Timothy Lawrence t= hat it's an email/mailing-list etiquette issue. More content to learn from = is *always* appreciated though, for the record! :-)

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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