Received: from mail-vk0-f58.google.com ([209.85.213.58]:33984) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1bkma9-0006Hp-Pp for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 15 Sep 2016 23:25:15 -0700 Received: by mail-vk0-f58.google.com with SMTP id g9sf2807252vkg.1 for ; Thu, 15 Sep 2016 23:25:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=sender:from:to:subject:thread-topic:thread-index:date:message-id :references:in-reply-to:accept-language:content-language :spamdiagnosticoutput:spamdiagnosticmetadata:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=2X10iMaslBMXYcHENNmgA3K5tQ5GMfQFaotDbhSeomU=; b=gjCfeep8C5m4i8doTXAS09Rok3NJCTe9TdFANAMqz9SnUUmyf2wuEji+wmnJy1wdAz VhpzPTl8BfjezA6wZrvVWhfDHYAFRVM3tO+0uKP+bzAXGJjllPT2SBFTz5E6VUcIVzD7 jOfATZGW1cPYnUerhMPMdubyhyYeX1nnS545UTVFAX1WgPXYuZklPydTGkWTga/Dx2TE RfQJ7rndWPi+VLNXppeKgUMbIb8NSj7MgWl9hIlNJAQiQULwP5CoKwQ94RTZsX1HrWQa RXtWz/+ryRYHE9yujZDwBlaL6a9EKJzKLiXrL01p2GB5kkT3ZxW22c9pyQycec6My5fs uI8Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:from:to:subject:thread-topic:thread-index :date:message-id:references:in-reply-to:accept-language :content-language:spamdiagnosticoutput:spamdiagnosticmetadata :mime-version:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=2X10iMaslBMXYcHENNmgA3K5tQ5GMfQFaotDbhSeomU=; b=MKZ4Jukj/GmaA3002WE+OpXPEQejVp6npdtBO9vhiq5BLx8MBKL0UQNZSQzXVTaYF2 NODoIA3/TB4WrtbzGskA9J7yWiteBYVbkJzPbrZ7CF8TcJotVGv35jb54EgiR9ojQacr +TIBQnJZOVNNxNp9zjMhyj31YUww4UgCXe9SxNp28bbTLGPVUPrnHZ89yUJKRQwWQv6f HzvNnOIkldPKcburxpmwPRApWIfUL9+dzZiXNUZ97QSc87hRyJ2ZrTmxdwCcN2rg27r0 +1yF+vUA9nD/L77Q3WbBBDt6ayP7UZ5CRh4uI05rjgMS90IYNrVyMA0rsbGanhh9b2N4 O08Q== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AE9vXwNqbAO3ph9gZa1vhwdmf9TXyVaxrosMMaY0Ww6zeb63qUezkEqMm811OoLGDaOY2A== X-Received: by 10.157.8.10 with SMTP id 10mr868389oty.16.1474007099701; Thu, 15 Sep 2016 23:24:59 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.157.5.7 with SMTP id 7ls5104088otw.9.gmail; Thu, 15 Sep 2016 23:24:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.129.155.145 with SMTP id s139mr9659157ywg.31.1474007099394; Thu, 15 Sep 2016 23:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM03-BY2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2nam03on0057.outbound.protection.outlook.com. [104.47.42.57]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h124si3677950pfe.0.2016.09.15.23.24.59 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 15 Sep 2016 23:24:59 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au designates 104.47.42.57 as permitted sender) client-ip=104.47.42.57; Received: from CO2PR01MB2087.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.166.91.18) by CO2PR01MB2088.prod.exchangelabs.com (10.166.91.19) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_0, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA_P384) id 15.1.619.10; Fri, 16 Sep 2016 06:24:58 +0000 Received: from CO2PR01MB2087.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.166.91.18]) by CO2PR01MB2087.prod.exchangelabs.com ([10.166.91.18]) with mapi id 15.01.0619.010; Fri, 16 Sep 2016 06:24:57 +0000 From: Timothy Lawrence To: Wei Tang , lojban Subject: Re: [lojban] BPFK has approved cmavo swaps Thread-Topic: [lojban] BPFK has approved cmavo swaps Thread-Index: AQHSDP/OhBCWrNBbmESxCeSTOZw7uaB6fkUXgADiiMGAADamgIAADUqW Date: Fri, 16 Sep 2016 06:24:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <07b91787-b69f-ea70-4015-8ae40e17297e@gmx.de> <141d21c1-9421-2e8f-2ad6-2056e507f49c@gmx.de>, , In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-AU, en-US Content-Language: en-AU X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [25.163.96.4] x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 36fa9fc6-1d96-40fe-36fa-08d3ddfa2e6a x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1;CO2PR01MB2088;6:jvuoBjeC90QKbTPEEl9Wi00YXqtZYmA6gZvfu154e4C5TrQszMser8paaX1ar2SKmlFnhVFIKRLieo9drWowwHtpc9e/An2O9uhB5SnVEqNjVRL1bC5xR5/ua2ROFRsWIur6sWtxZsTzYQozMgIx9EpqMnfhPek3hrr8CyEwtKN0wbcDhQFU6bRwhv8mMD2BctSs7aH273AVn2VHx4dnqWjYomIEUCaP0SLXHfpytU/8QGyj3xRun8SCOQgjoSdnEi4vuqYnfCheJLMxMcfrWOtft51n1glncDUeMR3dbl4=;5:LfPkGjO3pk6Hp7tJQ02x+ISDpCyIfcv25Y7wWkXmSNOXL7eZeW/SKQNkGulbhn73Xh3WnHXQ60GGk62Vd2Scc3cFOdoGbiyhWVB4ni/0mZw7nls5BsAbSFL5vMgwhP7SF+w5YBuRf3lNQv6mXcf/Lg==;24:KVGBgVBKQdAqQBXN9ZgudVQcTQIjiChLGka92qxDHK8AY3xfimSQA7FJPInQ1/4cR0hNa+zxWdRr4T2B4UoyMFbcyRUv5qgjHcvPsDP6prE=;7:13DJg91XbKQa+/d+rr+SJBZutbwDhenodoknfp9yJd1yB/7DYYaa5sMP+8H7yexw+fRfZDDGN2VXJlvO8z0iZrOwSowq7s77Q7jtIBTQOdfTI5irXQipjtvpvhuDZMdGk4dxNI1b2Vue3N0avkBmhBeHRCW9S+RnHvVQGwPNUoF2aRMV+MZW6pYxq+RwHCXH57Zpq3otZJy0AFX/5ZlhBd8fi3gxU5IQeN/hCWfTMIUCSsCYiJOORgQzUkOpO0K2 x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CO2PR01MB2088; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(215639381216008)(271806183753584)(228788266533470)(211936372134217)(5213294742642)(21532816269658); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:(6040176)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(10201501046)(3002001);SRVR:CO2PR01MB2088;BCL:0;PCL:0;RULEID:;SRVR:CO2PR01MB2088; x-forefront-prvs: 0067A8BA2A x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM;SFS:(10009020)(7916002)(199003)(189002)(24454002)(53754006)(377454003)(106356001)(122556002)(7846002)(77096005)(86362001)(93886004)(2950100001)(9686002)(5660300001)(2900100001)(7736002)(19580395003)(19617315012)(68736007)(19580405001)(107886002)(2906002)(16236675004)(74316002)(7696004)(7906003)(92566002)(3900700001)(97736004)(81166006)(105586002)(8676002)(81156014)(50986999)(5002640100001)(5001770100001)(88552002)(14971765001)(87936001)(3280700002)(33656002)(106116001)(76176999)(586003)(10400500002)(74482002)(15975445007)(3846002)(101416001)(102836003)(19625215002)(54356999)(8936002)(19627405001)(66066001)(561944003)(3660700001)(189998001)(6116002)(16451315004);DIR:OUT;SFP:1101;SCL:1;SRVR:CO2PR01MB2088;H:CO2PR01MB2087.prod.exchangelabs.com;FPR:;SPF:None;PTR:InfoNoRecords;A:1;MX:1;LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: connect.qut.edu.au does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_CO2PR01MB2087904FC6270205CABFA77BEBF30CO2PR01MB2087prod_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: connect.qut.edu.au X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Sep 2016 06:24:57.4593 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: dc0b52a3-68c5-44f7-881d-9383d8850b96 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: CO2PR01MB2088 X-Original-Sender: timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au designates 104.47.42.57 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=timothy.lawrence@connect.qut.edu.au; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=qut.edu.au Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --_000_CO2PR01MB2087904FC6270205CABFA77BEBF30CO2PR01MB2087prod_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable coi .i.ui mi mutce ckire do Thanks very much indeed! I am going to create an account there, "timoteios", if that's okay. We woul= d like to see if we can use it for hosting a Lojban website proposal and pe= rhaps other projects. Let us know at any time if we are overstaying our welcome! ki'e cai do. i mi'e la timoteios. ________________________________ From: Wei Tang Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 3:11 PM To: lojban Cc: Timothy Lawrence Subject: Re: [lojban] BPFK has approved cmavo swaps Hi all, Just in case we want to use Phabricator for project management: I have a Ph= abricator instance that is used to host some of my personal projects, which= has been running for more than a year. It is not heavily used, so I can of= fer it for Lojban users for any testing purpose. Here's the url: https://so= urce.that.world Until next time, have fun! -- Wei P.S. Don't know whether that would be a good fit, because Phabricator is ma= inly for code review, and stuff like that. On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 12:18:20 PM UTC+8, Timothy Lawrence wrote: > I am not confident in my ability to produce *correct* lojban, and so feel= a bit of an imposter. Thus: I lurk. I think a lot of learners feel like they would be imposing, but it is a mas= sive catch-22: if they don't "impose" they won't get good enough that they'= ll no longer be "imposing". The same has happened to me, so I've tried to g= et more active :) I would like the website to more explicitly encourage would-be lurkers to g= et active and participate, not fearing making mistakes. This is what I have= meant with my ideas about a formalised mentoring process. It doesn't have = to be mentoring per se, but just an explicit "talk to people! connect!" in = the website somewhere. There really are so many people who very kindly love= helping others learn Lojban. Humans are social animals, so we can't sustain motivation to learn a langua= ge alone indefinitely. My experience has been that others love beginners jo= ining the community and trying (regardless of any mistakes). > I'm simply not up to that level of fluency yet on the creation side. In martial arts, sometimes beginners use a sparring dummy before practising= with real persons. Lojban, being a language suitable for human-computer in= teraction, could have a dumb chatbot for "sparring" practice before talking= with real persons. I did a really basic mockup here to show the concept ht= tps://jsfiddle.net/gxextk82/10/ Once a user has exhausted its repertoire of= phrases, the bot could recommended the user should connect with the commun= ity now that they feel a bit more confident. Anyone, let me know if you want to collaborate on such a project. > I've considered doing some software development to create a better workfl= ow for, say, posting a blog in the language you're learning and easily allo= wing others to comment/correct specific parts Such software exists already (e.g. Phabricator, or GitHub, or any normal co= de review software). la suzanys and I are hoping to push for a Phabricator platform that will he= lp facilitate this and other Lojbanic projects :) We might be able to all c= ollaborate on a publication together. ________________________________ From: loj...@googlegroups.com on behalf of Joshua= Proehl Sent: Thursday, 15 September 2016 1:33 PM To: loj...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] BPFK has approved cmavo swaps most people seem to simply ignore everything that happens. Many people only ever speak up when they have something to complain about (= usually whenever something appears to be changing). Why do none of those pe= ople ever participate in anything constructive? Why has everyone been ignor= ing la uakci's many attempts at getting the community to participate in thi= ngs like his interactive story or the weekly poems? I read the mailing lists, and I enjoy the practice of reading content in Lo= jban. However I am not confident in my ability to produce *correct* lojban,= and so feel a bit of an imposter. Thus: I lurk. It's a problem I've had both in learning Lojban and German. Learning to pro= duce (write/speak) the language is a completely different skillset than lea= rning to understand it, and requires a lot of feedback and corrections. Nei= ther of the mailing lists are the place for that sort of content, nor a par= ticularly good medium. Were I to contribute content in lojban for poems/new= sletters it would place a significant editing burden on somebody, as I'm si= mply not up to that level of fluency yet on the creation side. (Solving this problem seems non-trivial. I've considered doing some softwar= e development to create a better workflow for, say, posting a blog in the l= anguage you're learning and easily allowing others to comment/correct speci= fic parts, but in order to be valuable you need the community of fluent spe= akers to dedicate time to making corrections/comments reliably, and I'm not= sure if Lojban has the critical mass to make it worth developing.) I appreciate the content! It's wonderful! Were there a "upvote" button on e= mail I would utilize it, but I agree with Timothy Lawrence that it's an ema= il/mailing-list etiquette issue. More content to learn from is *always* app= reciated though, for the record! :-) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --_000_CO2PR01MB2087904FC6270205CABFA77BEBF30CO2PR01MB2087prod_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

coi


.i.ui mi mutce ckire do

Thanks very much indeed!


I am going to create an account there, "timoteios"= ;, if that's okay. We would like to see if we can use it for hosting a Lojb= an website proposal and perhaps other projects.


Let us know at any time if we are overstaying our welcome!


ki'e cai do.

i mi'e la timoteios.


From: Wei Tang <sorpaa= s@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, 16 September 2016 3:11 PM
To: lojban
Cc: Timothy Lawrence
Subject: Re: [lojban] BPFK has approved cmavo swaps
 
Hi all,

Just in case we want to use Phabricator for project management: I have= a Phabricator instance that is used to host some of my personal projects, = which has been running for more than a year. It is not heavily used, so I c= an offer it for Lojban users for any testing purpose. Here's the url: https://source.that.world

Until next time, have fun!
-- Wei

P.S. Don't know whether that would be a good fit, because Phabricator = is mainly for code review, and stuff like that.

On Friday, September 16, 2016 at 12:18:20 PM UTC+8, Timothy Lawrence wr= ote:

> I am not confident in my ability to produce *correct= * lojban, and so feel a bit of an imposter. Thus: I lurk. 

I think a lot of learners feel like they would be imposing, but it is a massive catch-22: if they don't "impose" they won't get good eno= ugh that they'll no longer be "imposing". The same has happened&n= bsp;to me, so I've tried to get more active :)

I would like the website to more explicitly encourage would-be lurkers to g= et active and participate, not fearing making mistakes. This is what I have= meant with my ideas about a formalised mentoring process. It doesn't have = to be mentoring per se, but just an explicit "talk to people! connect!" in the website somewhere.= There really are so many people who very kindly love helping others learn = Lojban.

Humans are social animals, so we can't sustain motivation to l= earn a language alone indefinitely. My experience has been that others love beg= inners joining the community and trying (regardless of any mistakes).<= /span>


> I'm simply not up to that level of fluency yet on th= e creation side. 

In martial arts, sometimes beginners use a sparring dummy before practis= ing with real persons. Lojban, being a language suitable for human-com= puter interaction, could have a dumb&nb= sp;chatbot for "sparring" practice before talking with real persons. I did a&nb= sp;really basic mockup here to show the concept https://jsfiddle.net/gxextk82/10/ Once a user has exhausted its repertoire of phrases, the bot could reco= mmended the user should connect with the community now that they = feel a bit more confident.


Anyone, let me know if you want to c= ollaborate on such a project.



> I've considered doing some software developmen= t to create a better workflow for, say, posting a blog in the language you'= re learning and easily allowing others to comment/correct specific parts


Such software exists already (e.g. Phabricator, or GitHub, or = any normal code review software).


la suzanys and I are hoping to push for a Phabricator platform that = will help facilitate this and other Lojbanic projects :) We might be able t= o all collaborate on a publication together.



From: loj...@googlegroups.com= <loj...@googlegroups.co= m> on behalf of Joshua Proehl <joshua...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 15 September 2016 1:33 PM
To: loj...@googlegro= ups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] BPFK has approved cmavo swaps
 

 most people seem to simply ignore everything that happens.

Many people only ever speak up when they have something to complain about (= usually whenever something appears to be changing). Why do none of those pe= ople ever participate in anything constructive? Why has everyone been ignor= ing la uakci's many attempts at getting the community to participate in things like his interactive story = or the weekly poems?


I read the mailing lists, and I enjoy the practice of reading content = in Lojban. However I am not confident in my ability to produce *correct* lo= jban, and so feel a bit of an imposter. Thus: I lurk.

It's a problem I've had both in learning Lojban and German. Learning t= o produce (write/speak) the language is a completely different skillset tha= n learning to understand it, and requires a lot of feedback and corrections= . Neither of the mailing lists are the place for that sort of content, nor a particularly good medium. Were I= to contribute content in lojban for poems/newsletters it would place a sig= nificant editing burden on somebody, as I'm simply not up to that level of = fluency yet on the creation side.

(Solving this problem seems non-trivial. I've considered doing some softwar= e development to create a better workflow for, say, posting a blog in the l= anguage you're learning and easily allowing others to comment/correct speci= fic parts, but in order to be valuable you need the community of fluent speakers to dedicate time to making corre= ctions/comments reliably, and I'm not sure if Lojban has the critical mass = to make it worth developing.)

I appreciate the content! It's wonderful! Were there a "upvote&qu= ot; button on email I would utilize it, but I agree with Timothy Lawrence t= hat it's an email/mailing-list etiquette issue. More content to learn from = is *always* appreciated though, for the record! :-)

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googl= egroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--_000_CO2PR01MB2087904FC6270205CABFA77BEBF30CO2PR01MB2087prod_--