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[98.139.213.79]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v21si1735619ywa.7.2016.09.26.10.20.51 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 26 Sep 2016 10:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.213.79 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.213.79; Received: from [66.196.81.174] by nm13.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Sep 2016 17:20:50 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.237] by tm20.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Sep 2016 17:20:41 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1046.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Sep 2016 17:20:41 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 52979.90548.bm@omp1046.mail.bf1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: 4iDk584VM1nPpQqIi8UDwxEzxAx7ClxVrlTyQjsaihn1_5r0hcsgNH5kjAGNQ4e hiiEgvdeUHaDR9.XcUPgAVcVcyQUeKDNSREPcDP6Mkz06OGndY5Dja9TCCMUMAYPUVQVyfO5Fynz WGdxmzE9Xa5SDzxqUSWI3IplJBJmnS8iHhCEkiLwoOORXFUKQh9b2o2WkoAHtxHdGho9yOk_59uK 8PCyD32XBAecsjKZWfXqN25AAfH7ZZTZafL4_A7qTM7xRRw7MzJ5tpQrvZk1yHFJb_CeGUuH26T1 0xA.O4hn5XSV53NcEZNhspX_B9D7EKYOuujwWckxiabvxoRM.9ONynGz3jTxeS1VD0JlBOeQ4KWu XHiqDhTxCJtW9uan9L4XCJT.09XsWz6oeiWMDxa3ycH9YHJ4_QJqx8yvGA9cGWaF8Mtx5FAg_ULk zcliA8RWEWHM6H_1.XFf9P4v26rRMbFBghJBdx5zL5zI8TnoXIfEKynLrwH6GJChrrrV39NfF8TF W2rXg8x_Y5ygGi6FJSSdSWMUUV.wk9xbnpahqDjBgARt0r78rGfY5ag-- Received: from jws10647.mail.bf1.yahoo.com by sendmailws104.mail.bf1.yahoo.com; Mon, 26 Sep 2016 17:20:40 +0000; 1474910440.532 Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2016 17:20:39 +0000 (UTC) From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Message-ID: <309770757.1620403.1474910440149@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [lojban] A Simpler Connective System (blog article) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1620402_2131570137.1474910440141" Content-Length: 14568 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.213.79 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com X-Original-From: John E Clifford Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_1620402_2131570137.1474910440141 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Since JCB through out the basic structure of FOPL on day one of the develop= ment of Loglan and decided to graft a pseudo form onto a SAE base, things l= ike trying to simplify the conjunction system have been a matter of ever in= creasing complexity, interrupted occasionally by attempts to get back to th= e basic underlying simplicity -- with scarcely visible success.=C2=A0 To be= sure, Lojban has achieved the monoparsing with which it should have begun = at the cost of Byzantine complexity (and questionable accuracy) But it seem= s unlikely that much reform can keep this result and cut through the mare's= nest.=C2=A0 There are those that love the complexity and the documented st= ructure (the best documentation in the language business, after all) and --= despite occasional complaints about not getting more new people -- glory i= n their isolated mastery, and=C2=A0 so they are not interested in "improvem= ents".=C2=A0 Mere improvers are also too tied up in the status quo to consi= der scrapping the mess and starting over on the right foot this time.=C2=A0= So, changes, fueled merely be convenience or clarity, are not likely to oc= cur.=C2=A0 Changes that add to complexity are always welcome, of course. = =C2=A0=20 =20 On Monday, September 26, 2016 11:41 AM, And Rosta = wrote: =20 =20 On 26 September 2016 at 16:04, selpahi wrote: On 26.09.2016 16:43, And Rosta wrote: Having given the matter about .0001% of the thought you have, I wonder whether the gi'i terminator is optimal. Firstly it would not always be easy to work out on the fly when it is and isn't elidable, so the prudent strategy would be to leave it in except when certain it is elidable. Secondly, when it isn't elided it adds an extra word and two extra syllables. A better alternative would be to introduce medial conjuncts with _go_ rather than _gi_, and use _gi_ only for introducing final conjuncts: {ga JA A go B go C gi D}. (Or, one step neater, use _gu_ for medial conjuncts and _go_ for the tanru coordination introducer. Or _ge_.) The only times {gi'i} would not be elidible is if another connective follow= s that is supposed to apply to the entire forethought connection to its lef= t. In all other cases {gi'i} is elidible, because each {gi} can only devour= exactly one sumti, after which the entire connection ends automatically. Your strategy with {go} would involve much more forethought than this, beca= use you would have to be absolutely certain that you only want to add exact= ly one more item. Yes, but in designing an ergonomic loglang -- which okay, Lojban isn't and = doesn't aspire to be, but we're kind of imagining if it were trying to be -= - should minimizing speaker forethought be prioritized over, say, minimizin= g hearer backtracking, or minimizing verbosity? (I think no.)=C2=A0 Do you have any situations in mind where working out whether {gi'i} is elid= ible would not be easy? I was thinking of {ga JA1 ga JA2 ga JA3 A gi B gi C gi D gi E gi F gi G gi = H gi I gi J gi K}, which I presume would treat A--K as conjuncts of JA3, an= d would require two {gi'i}s (terminating JA3 and JA2) to mark the intended = structure (whatever it is). Have I misunderstood? I suppose it's not hard t= o work out that gi'i is unelidable, so I will withdraw the first of my two = objections. A reason for preferring the terminator over alternatives is tha= t terminators are the Lojban way; but a reason for preferring terminatorles= s alternatives is that they can potentially involve incremental parsing wit= hout lookahead, which I think is psycholinguistically much less taxing, and= that terminators are psycholinguistically alien. --And. =C2=A0 Thank you for your comment. ~~~mi'e la solpa'i --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroup s.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/grou p/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op tout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_1620402_2131570137.1474910440141 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Since JCB through out the basic structure of FOP= L on day one of the development of Loglan and decided to graft a pseudo for= m onto a SAE base, things like trying to simplify the conjunction system ha= ve been a matter of ever increasing complexity, interrupted occasionally by= attempts to get back to the basic underlying simplicity -- with scarcely v= isible success.  To be sure, Lojban has achieved the monoparsing with = which it should have begun at the cost of Byzantine complexity (and questio= nable accuracy) But it seems unlikely that much reform can keep this result= and cut through the mare's nest.  There are those that love the compl= exity and the documented structure (the best documentation in the language = business, after all) and -- despite occasional complaints about not getting= more new people -- glory in their isolated mastery, and  so they are = not interested in "improvements".  Mere improvers are also too tied up= in the status quo to consider scrapping the mess and starting over on the = right foot this time.  So, changes, fueled merely be convenience or cl= arity, are not likely to occur.  Changes that add to complexity are al= ways welcome, of course.  


<= div class=3D"yahoo_quoted" style=3D"display: block;">
On Monday, September 26, 20= 16 11:41 AM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:
=


On 26 September 20= 16 at 16:04, selpahi <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:
On 26.09.= 2016 16:43, And Rosta wrote:
Having given the matter about .0001% of the thought you have, I wonder
whether the gi'i terminator is optimal. Firstly it would not always be
easy to work out on the fly when it is and isn't elidable, so the
prudent strategy would be to leave it in except when certain it is
elidable. Secondly, when it isn't elided it adds an extra word and two
extra syllables. A better alternative would be to introduce medial
conjuncts with _go_ rather than _gi_, and use _gi_ only for introducing
final conjuncts: {ga JA A go B go C gi D}. (Or, one step neater, use
_gu_ for medial conjuncts and _go_ for the tanru coordination
introducer. Or _ge_.)

The only times {gi'i} would not be elidible is if another connective follow= s that is supposed to apply to the entire forethought connection to its lef= t. In all other cases {gi'i} is elidible, because each {gi} can only devour= exactly one sumti, after which the entire connection ends automatically.
Your strategy with {go} would involve much more forethought than this, beca= use you would have to be absolutely certain that you only want to add exact= ly one more item.

Yes, but in designing an ergonomic loglang -- which okay, Lojban i= sn't and doesn't aspire to be, but we're kind of imagining if it were tryin= g to be -- should minimizing speaker forethought be prioritized over, say, = minimizing hearer backtracking, or minimizing verbosity? (I think no.)
 

Do you have any situations in mind where working out whether {gi'i} is elid= ible would not be easy?

I was thinking of {ga JA1 ga JA2 ga JA3 A gi B gi C gi D gi = E gi F gi G gi H gi I gi J gi K}, which I presume would treat A--K as conju= ncts of JA3, and would require two {gi'i}s (terminating JA3 and JA2) to mar= k the intended structure (whatever it is). Have I misunderstood? I suppose = it's not hard to work out that gi'i is unelidable, so I will withdraw the f= irst of my two objections. A reason for preferring the terminator over alte= rnatives is that terminators are the Lojban way; but a reason for preferrin= g terminatorless alternatives is that they can potentially involve incremen= tal parsing without lookahead, which I think is psycholinguistically much l= ess taxing, and that terminators are psycholinguistically alien.
=
--And.


 

Thank you for your comment.

~~~mi'e la solpa'i


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