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[2a00:1450:4010:c07::236]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w16si672324wmd.0.2016.09.27.05.30.52 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 27 Sep 2016 05:30:52 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::236 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c07::236; Received: by mail-lf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id b71so20859381lfg.0 for ; Tue, 27 Sep 2016 05:30:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.25.34.85 with SMTP id i82mr8698418lfi.141.1474979451602; Tue, 27 Sep 2016 05:30:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.25.23.206 with HTTP; Tue, 27 Sep 2016 05:30:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <309770757.1620403.1474910440149@mail.yahoo.com> From: Gleki Arxokuna Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2016 15:30:11 +0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] A Simpler Connective System (blog article) To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ab412438eb9053d7c6a37 X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c07::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - --001a113ab412438eb9053d7c6a37 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 2016-09-27 15:18 GMT+03:00 Susannah Doss : > As a *nintadni *whose opinion arguably doesn't matter that much*, I've > avoided using connectives because I was horribly confused by what I've read > about the existing system. *.i .ie ji'a lo frica nintadni cu tugni lo > du'u mi'a cinmo lo xrani .uanmonai *There were so many words to remember > for different situations! When I read the new proposal, I immediately > understood the proposed system. It seems much more elegant than the > existing system. I really like it. *.i lo mibypre cu pa'itce lo melbi > selti'i* > My experience with lo nintadni is that the problem is definitely not in the system itself but in how it is taught. CLL by design is not a tutorial, and other textbooks by far only tried to copy it, successfully or unsuccessfully. > ** to .i a'o lo mrilu mibziljmina cu nalkansa lo donynabmi toi* > > *.i ki'e la zabna donpre* > *.i mi'e la .suzanys.* > > On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 7:34 AM, wrote: > >> >> >> Em segunda-feira, 26 de setembro de 2016 21:31:11 UTC+3, aionys escreveu: >>> >>> Aha, I found .xorxes.'s proposal. Apparently it overloads {gi}, while >>> this one does not? >>> >>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban/ExtEumbYoQg >>> >> >> You can also find a boiled down version of it. >> >> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 11:20 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban < >>> loj...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>> >>>> Since JCB through out the basic structure of FOPL on day one of the >>>> development of Loglan and decided to graft a pseudo form onto a SAE base, >>>> things like trying to simplify the conjunction system have been a matter of >>>> ever increasing complexity, interrupted occasionally by attempts to get >>>> back to the basic underlying simplicity -- with scarcely visible success. >>>> To be sure, Lojban has achieved the monoparsing with which it should have >>>> begun at the cost of Byzantine complexity (and questionable accuracy) But >>>> it seems unlikely that much reform can keep this result and cut through the >>>> mare's nest. There are those that love the complexity and the documented >>>> structure (the best documentation in the language business, after all) and >>>> -- despite occasional complaints about not getting more new people -- glory >>>> in their isolated mastery, and so they are not interested in >>>> "improvements". Mere improvers are also too tied up in the status quo to >>>> consider scrapping the mess and starting over on the right foot this time. >>>> So, changes, fueled merely be convenience or clarity, are not likely to >>>> occur. Changes that add to complexity are always welcome, of course. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Monday, September 26, 2016 11:41 AM, And Rosta >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 26 September 2016 at 16:04, selpahi wrote: >>>> >>>> On 26.09.2016 16:43, And Rosta wrote: >>>> >>>> Having given the matter about .0001% of the thought you have, I wonder >>>> whether the gi'i terminator is optimal. Firstly it would not always be >>>> easy to work out on the fly when it is and isn't elidable, so the >>>> prudent strategy would be to leave it in except when certain it is >>>> elidable. Secondly, when it isn't elided it adds an extra word and two >>>> extra syllables. A better alternative would be to introduce medial >>>> conjuncts with _go_ rather than _gi_, and use _gi_ only for introducing >>>> final conjuncts: {ga JA A go B go C gi D}. (Or, one step neater, use >>>> _gu_ for medial conjuncts and _go_ for the tanru coordination >>>> introducer. Or _ge_.) >>>> >>>> >>>> The only times {gi'i} would not be elidible is if another connective >>>> follows that is supposed to apply to the entire forethought connection to >>>> its left. In all other cases {gi'i} is elidible, because each {gi} can only >>>> devour exactly one sumti, after which the entire connection ends >>>> automatically. >>>> >>>> Your strategy with {go} would involve much more forethought than this, >>>> because you would have to be absolutely certain that you only want to add >>>> exactly one more item. >>>> >>>> >>>> Yes, but in designing an ergonomic loglang -- which okay, Lojban isn't >>>> and doesn't aspire to be, but we're kind of imagining if it were trying to >>>> be -- should minimizing speaker forethought be prioritized over, say, >>>> minimizing hearer backtracking, or minimizing verbosity? (I think no.) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Do you have any situations in mind where working out whether {gi'i} is >>>> elidible would not be easy? >>>> >>>> >>>> I was thinking of {ga JA1 ga JA2 ga JA3 A gi B gi C gi D gi E gi F gi G >>>> gi H gi I gi J gi K}, which I presume would treat A--K as conjuncts of JA3, >>>> and would require two {gi'i}s (terminating JA3 and JA2) to mark the >>>> intended structure (whatever it is). Have I misunderstood? I suppose it's >>>> not hard to work out that gi'i is unelidable, so I will withdraw the first >>>> of my two objections. A reason for preferring the terminator over >>>> alternatives is that terminators are the Lojban way; but a reason for >>>> preferring terminatorless alternatives is that they can potentially involve >>>> incremental parsing without lookahead, which I think is >>>> psycholinguistically much less taxing, and that terminators are >>>> psycholinguistically alien. >>>> >>>> --And. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Thank you for your comment. >>>> >>>> ~~~mi'e la solpa'i >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroup s.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/grou p/lojban >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/op tout >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ > topic/lojban/ewQLBEaH52s/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a113ab412438eb9053d7c6a37 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2016-09-27 15:18 GMT+03:00 Susannah Doss <susannah.j.d@gmail.com= >:
As a=C2= =A0nintadni=C2=A0whose opinion arguably doesn't matter that much= *, I've avoided using connectives because I was horribly confused by wh= at I've read about the existing system.=C2=A0.i .ie ji'a lo fric= a nintadni cu tugni lo du'u mi'a cinmo lo xrani .uanmonai=C2=A0= There were so many words to remember for different situations! When I read = the new proposal, I immediately understood the proposed system. It seems mu= ch more elegant than the existing system. I really like it.=C2=A0.i lo m= ibypre cu pa'itce lo melbi selti'i

<= /div>
My experience with lo nintadni is that the problem is definitely = not in the system itself but in how it is taught.
CLL by design i= s not a tutorial, and other textbooks by far only tried to copy it, success= fully or unsuccessfully.


* to .i a'o lo mrilu mibziljmi= na cu nalkansa lo donynabmi toi

.i k= i'e la zabna donpre
.i mi'e la .suzanys.
=

On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 7:34 AM, <gleki.is.my.name@g= mail.com> wrote:


Em segunda-feira, 2= 6 de setembro de 2016 21:31:11 UTC+3, aionys escreveu:
Aha, I found .xorxes.'s proposal. = Apparently it overloads {gi}, while this one does not?

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/lojban/ExtEu= mbYoQg

You can also find a= boiled down version of it.
=C2=A0


On Mon, Sep 26, 2016 at 11:20 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lo= jban <loj...@googlegroups.com&= gt; wrote:
Since JCB= through out the basic structure of FOPL on day one of the development of L= oglan and decided to graft a pseudo form onto a SAE base, things like tryin= g to simplify the conjunction system have been a matter of ever increasing = complexity, interrupted occasionally by attempts to get back to the basic u= nderlying simplicity -- with scarcely visible success.=C2=A0 To be sure, Lo= jban has achieved the monoparsing with which it should have begun at the co= st of Byzantine complexity (and questionable accuracy) But it seems unlikel= y that much reform can keep this result and cut through the mare's nest= .=C2=A0 There are those that love the complexity and the documented structu= re (the best documentation in the language business, after all) and -- desp= ite occasional complaints about not getting more new people -- glory in the= ir isolated mastery, and=C2=A0 so they are not interested in "improvem= ents".=C2=A0 Mere improvers are also too tied up in the status quo to = consider scrapping the mess and starting over on the right foot this time.= =C2=A0 So, changes, fueled merely be convenience or clarity, are not likely= to occur.=C2=A0 Changes that add to complexity are always welcome, of cour= se. =C2=A0


On Monday, September 26, 2016 11:41 AM, And Rosta <and....@gmail.com> wrote:




On 26 September 2016 at 16:04, selpahi <sel...@gmx.de> wrote:
On 26.09.2016 16:43, And Rosta wrote:
Having given the matter about .0001% of the thought you have, I wonder
whether the gi'i terminator is optimal. Firstly it would not always be<= br clear=3D"none"> easy to work out on the fly when it is and isn't elidable, so the
prudent strategy would be to leave it in except when certain it is
elidable. Secondly, when it isn't elided it adds an extra word and two<= br clear=3D"none"> extra syllables. A better alternative would be to introduce medial
conjuncts with _go_ rather than _gi_, and use _gi_ only for introducing
final conjuncts: {ga JA A go B go C gi D}. (Or, one step neater, use
_gu_ for medial conjuncts and _go_ for the tanru coordination
introducer. Or _ge_.)

The only times {gi'i} would not be elidible is if another connective fo= llows that is supposed to apply to the entire forethought connection to its= left. In all other cases {gi'i} is elidible, because each {gi} can onl= y devour exactly one sumti, after which the entire connection ends automati= cally.

Your strategy with {go} would involve much more forethought than this, beca= use you would have to be absolutely certain that you only want to add exact= ly one more item.

Yes, but in designing an ergonomic loglang -- which okay, Lojban i= sn't and doesn't aspire to be, but we're kind of imagining if i= t were trying to be -- should minimizing speaker forethought be prioritized= over, say, minimizing hearer backtracking, or minimizing verbosity? (I thi= nk no.)
=C2=A0

Do you have any situations in mind where working out whether {gi'i} is = elidible would not be easy?

I was thinking of {ga JA1 ga JA2 ga JA3 A gi B gi C gi= D gi E gi F gi G gi H gi I gi J gi K}, which I presume would treat A--K as= conjuncts of JA3, and would require two {gi'i}s (terminating JA3 and J= A2) to mark the intended structure (whatever it is). Have I misunderstood? = I suppose it's not hard to work out that gi'i is unelidable, so I w= ill withdraw the first of my two objections. A reason for preferring the te= rminator over alternatives is that terminators are the Lojban way; but a re= ason for preferring terminatorless alternatives is that they can potentiall= y involve incremental parsing without lookahead, which I think is psycholin= guistically much less taxing, and that terminators are psycholinguistically= alien.

--And.


=C2=A0

Thank you for your comment.

~~~mi'e la solpa'i


--
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 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroup s.com.
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Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/gro= u p/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= p tout.


<= /div>
--
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 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
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For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.


=

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 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
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--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be= denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, = I am your father. :D )

--
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Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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--001a113ab412438eb9053d7c6a37--