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[216.109.114.65]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c75si353307ywh.0.2016.10.07.10.01.06 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 07 Oct 2016 10:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.114.65 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.114.65; Received: from [98.139.170.182] by nm49.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Oct 2016 17:01:06 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.221] by tm25.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Oct 2016 17:01:06 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1030.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 07 Oct 2016 17:01:06 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 255408.76048.bm@omp1030.mail.bf1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: kqdE2VwVM1kFBblvwRvawGr0NlTLgHJCdNsXoaPhSSBccg8zVgJYgSDXftd5yT2 vG._F82pmJ8tb5CtoI5G1Q84GA_lmFeEji8sOIeVGrrbkbBVguUVx1TWoD0vhWUkZsYE6PRk5sCL 5ZStfZs6cBn0GO26D.BJlMZHNX8jcEDQu2RaH4YlGlRrcGrA5SNUdooN8Wo26UqTibhM12fe5pjl aS7uxuGc.XEumkORsZGh3KN3Ccb76gk5wj4rxklCcYP07QlARK9DVgPjYpdthDn2cLSIvqjVOumn NVUqovUBXg_.VkLuS2vMPDEGm481jpYJJEErtVUIrqgHd_7PRPHONlWoSGRhMfcFPYPAFc4s7QM8 B0eMHBjDP3_iHN.xoa7mDswkUevECdS9JjdKYf4spxrRSaVqd5BWs8sPLUBpRj7QT7SoERrc4z8O oy1_Qbw.CemoiIsprU2lqQvKTXDhL6HBLQ9QAttsvjSLeGQNam4WCx.B4aUa.hAAZnL10WQAZ0ge eCbKUdZrNNmjE8IrlEZb5TAixaBu4u_pOSuWcwQ8gew26 Received: from jws106256.mail.bf2.yahoo.com by sendmailws131.mail.bf1.yahoo.com; Fri, 07 Oct 2016 17:01:05 +0000; 1475859665.885 Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2016 17:01:05 +0000 (UTC) From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Message-ID: <1837014150.177046.1475859665598@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <3cb1fc04-c3d0-3535-099e-30b8b120f219@gmx.de> <029f288a-19dd-4fcd-baca-410337df7f8f@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: A Simpler Quantifier Logic (blog article) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_177045_1777118621.1475859665591" Content-Length: 12842 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.114.65 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com X-Original-From: John E Clifford Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.0 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.0 X-Spam_score_int: 0 X-Spam_bar: / ------=_Part_177045_1777118621.1475859665591 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It's been a while since I paid much attention to attempts to patch up other= wise improve this inherently flawed system, but the simplified connective s= ystem seems actually have done some useful work in that direction.=C2=A0 It= has been even longer since I thought about xorl0, but if asked I would hav= e said that it had both plural terms and plural quantifiers (though I would= not have been surprised to learn that people were not using them consisten= tly nor well).=C2=A0 Still, it is nice to see it all spelled out again, exc= ept, of course, for the forced positional attribution of distribution or co= llectivity.=C2=A0 Some words just aren't fixed that way ("carry" from the c= lassic case going back to JCB) and so we still need an occasional device to= mark which is to be used in a particular case -- one that attaches to part= icular argument slots.=C2=A0=20 =20 On Friday, October 7, 2016 11:34 AM, Remo Dentato = wrote: =20 I've not be able to fully grok the articles but I really like this series = of "Simpler". I really look forward to see the one on "Morphology". Remo On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 6:27 PM, wrote: Em sexta-feira, 7 de outubro de 2016 15:09:59 UTC+3, selpa'i escreveu: In this article I will take a closer look at the quantifier logic=20 currently present in (post-xorlo) Lojban. I will identify logical=20 problems as well as practical disadvantages. Finally, I will offer a=20 solution that addresses both. Not only is the current system both impractical and unintuitive, its=20 introduction also left behind one major logical flaw as Lojban made the=20 move from singular logic to plural logic. Read on to find out what singular logic and plural logic are, how they=20 are related to xorlo, and why the current situation is not tenable. https://solpahi.wordpress.com/ 2016/09/25/a-simpler-quantifie r-logic/ One thing is that it says that under singular logic "nobody is gathering" i= s impossible but why not use {selcmi}. That's of course beside the point of= the article. That section is clearly called "singular meets plural", which= some readers might forget about, though. Phrasing {na ku su=E2=80=99oi jbopre na ku remna} might make the reader thi= nk whether the scope is affected by plural quantifiers or not (since {su'oi= } is in the middle but later it's asserted that plural {re} and {ci} aren't= affected by scope). Also it'd be nice to explain one mysterious particle of class LE one day si= nce it's (for obvious reasons) absent from the proposal in this article. And singular/plural looks like an obsession with Pythagorean number, which = rule the world.=C2=A0E.g. such quantifier as "various" in "People talk to e= ach other in various languages" is roughly {so'i} and precisely based on {v= rici} and non-distributive (or sometimes is distributive) but is a quantifi= ers that quantifies other predicates. Such quantifiers are unfortunately of= ten forgotten. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@ googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/ group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_177045_1777118621.1475859665591 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's been a while since I paid much attention to= attempts to patch up otherwise improve this inherently flawed system, but = the simplified connective system seems actually have done some useful work = in that direction.  It has been even longer since I thought about xorl= 0, but if asked I would have said that it had both plural terms and plural = quantifiers (though I would not have been surprised to learn that people we= re not using them consistently nor well).  Still, it is nice to see it= all spelled out again, except, of course, for the forced positional attrib= ution of distribution or collectivity.  Some words just aren't fixed t= hat way ("carry" from the classic case going back to JCB) and so we still n= eed an occasional device to mark which is to be used in a particular case -= - one that attaches to particular argument slots. 


On F= riday, October 7, 2016 11:34 AM, Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com> wr= ote:


I've not be able to fully grok the= articles but I really like this series of "Simpler".
I r= eally look forward to see the one on "Morphology".

Remo

On Fri,= Oct 7, 2016 at 6:27 PM, <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>= ; wrote:


Em sexta-feira, 7 de outubro de 2016 15:09:59 UTC+3, selpa'i = escreveu:
In t= his article I will take a closer look at the quantifier logic=20
currently present in (post-xorlo) Lojban. I will identif= y logical=20
problems as well as practical disadvantages. Finally, I = will offer a=20
solution that addresses both.

Not only is the current system both impractical and unin= tuitive, its=20
introduction also left behind one major logical flaw as = Lojban made the=20
move from singular logic to plural logic.

Read on to find out what singular logic and plural logic= are, how they=20
are related to xorlo, and why the current situation is n= ot tenable.

https://solpahi.wordpress.com/ 201= 6/09/25/a-simpler-quantifie r-logic/

One thin= g is that it says that under singular logic "nobody is gathering" is imposs= ible but why not use {selcmi}. That's of course beside the point of the art= icle. That section is clearly called "singular meets plural", which some re= aders might forget about, though.

P= hrasing {na ku su=E2=80=99oi jbopre na ku remna} might make the reader thin= k whether the scope is affected by plural quantifiers or not (since {su'oi}= is in the middle but later it's asserted that plural {re} and {ci} aren't = affected by scope).

Also it'd be ni= ce to explain one mysterious particle of class LE one day since it's (for o= bvious reasons) absent from the proposal in this article.


And singular/plural lo= oks like an obsession with Pythagorean number, which rule the world. <= /div>
E.g. such quantifier as "various" in "People talk to each other i= n various languages" is roughly {so'i} and precisely based on {vrici} and n= on-distributive (or sometimes is distributive) but is a quantifiers that qu= antifies other predicates. Such quantifiers are unfortunately often forgott= en.
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Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/ gr= oup/lojban.
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