Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of seladwa@gmx.de designates 212.227.15.18 as permitted sender) client-ip=212.227.15.18;
Subject: Re: [lojban] A Simpler Quantifier Logic (blog article)
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
References: <3cb1fc04-c3d0-3535-099e-30b8b120f219@gmx.de>
 <CAO7tK2dvRVjJCqBwSFv4rQFx19+=-5hWdm2ZwYS3=qvFMeMAng@mail.gmail.com>
 <34331450-8689-5c39-2e45-991095de8e8a@gmx.de>
 <CAO7tK2fikZ4+kd3=oFrocaR=Q2bbyPq4qWwuE84qWN2qTdzd0g@mail.gmail.com>
From: selpahi <seladwa@gmx.de>
Message-ID: <ee747dc2-a781-55f6-a65e-e86718692119@gmx.de>
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 20:45:57 +0200
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101
 Thunderbird/45.4.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CAO7tK2fikZ4+kd3=oFrocaR=Q2bbyPq4qWwuE84qWN2qTdzd0g@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -1.7
X-Spam_score_int: -16
X-Spam_bar: -

On 10.10.2016 02:08, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 9, 2016 at 12:23 PM, selpahi <seladwa@gmx.de
> <mailto:seladwa@gmx.de>> wrote:
>
>
>     What I really want is for the existential quantifier to become
>     distinct from the "at least n" operator. In my preferred version of
>     cekitauj (the cmavo swap dialects) the existential quantifier is
>     spelled {su} and the "at least" operator is spelled {su'o}. This
>     split is not possible in official Lojban, unfortunately, but it
>     would keep the symmetry intact.
>
>
> That makes sense. One difference with the singular version is that
> plural "su'e" (and plural "me'i") will have existential import: "su'e re
> no tadni cu sruri lo dinju" with plural "su'ereno" would mean "there are
> some students, who are at most twenty, surrounding the building".
>
> How do we say the old singular "su'e mu broda cu brode" (which allows
> the possibility that "no broda cu brode") with the new system?

How about {na ku za'u mu broda cu brode}?

(And when existential import isn't a problem, {ru'o broda cu su'e mu=20
mei} (or {lo broda cu su'e mu mei}) are options).

>         Would "no" become "no'oi" as well?
>
>     Yes, I believe it must and should.
>
>
> And singular "no" is then "no pa", right?

Yes, I would say so.

>     So I would say that
>
>        ru'o da poi jbopre zo'u so'e de poi menre da cu banka'e lo .inglic=
o
>        "All [the] Lojbanists taken together are such that most of them
>     speak English."
>
>     is a better (intermediate) expansion. (Getting rid of {so'e}
>     entirely is possible, but I'm too lazy to type it out. The
>     proportion is >0.5)
>
>
> I think the expansion should be:
>
>  PA broda cu brode -> su'oi da poi PA mei lo broda cu brode
>
> which I think would work for all the numeric quantifiers:
> [da'a][su'o|su'e|me'i|za'u|ji'i] n; so'V; du'e, mo'a, rau; and also for
> ru'o.

This seems to be pretty much the same as the {ru'o} expansion.

But I think it's only equivalent if you subscribe to {lo}'s maximality.=20
(It wouldn't be the first expansion that presupposes maximality even=20
though we never decided that {lo} must have maximality)

So, I take it, you do subscribe to maximality? (I do)

>     But {me'i} and {za'u} can be considered prefixes. I had thought
>     {me'i PA da} would mean {su'oi da poi me'i PA mei}. A definition in
>     terms of {ru'o} would also be possible, but I'm not sure that it
>     would be better. It would mean allowing prefixes (like "<" and ">")
>     to turn non-{ru'o} numerical quantifiers into {ru'o}-type
>     quantifiers, and this requires a good justification.
>
>
> What do you mean by non-ru'o numerical quantifiers? su'oi, ro'oi, no'oi,
> me'oi are non-ru'o, in the sense that they don't expand to a "su'oi da
> poi PA mei" form. (I don't even know what "PA mei" would mean for them.)

Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant "non-{ru'o}" in a {noi} way. All=20
numerical quantifiers are of the non-{ru'o} type. Your prefixes turn=20
them into {ru'o} types.

~~~mi'e la solpa'i


---
Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.