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From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2016 17:03:16 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban] A Simpler Quantifier Logic (blog article)
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On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:45 PM, selpahi <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:

> On 10.10.2016 02:08, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote:
>
>>
>>         Would "no" become "no'oi" as well?
>>
>>     Yes, I believe it must and should.
>>
>> And singular "no" is then "no pa", right?
>>
>
> Yes, I would say so.


I don't know if it's a good idea to use the same word for the digit "0" and
the (plural) quantifier "~E".

It could be confusing that "no pa no" is "no ten" rather than "010".


I think the expansion should be:
>>
>>  PA broda cu brode -> su'oi da poi PA mei lo broda cu brode
>>
>> which I think would work for all the numeric quantifiers:
>> [da'a][su'o|su'e|me'i|za'u|ji'i] n; so'V; du'e, mo'a, rau; and also for
>> ru'o.
>>
>
> This seems to be pretty much the same as the {ru'o} expansion.
>
> But I think it's only equivalent if you subscribe to {lo}'s maximality.
> (It wouldn't be the first expansion that presupposes maximality even thou=
gh
> we never decided that {lo} must have maximality)
>
> So, I take it, you do subscribe to maximality? (I do)


I subscribe to a version of it where generic is maximal. I think for
example that "ro (pa) lo smani pu citka lo badna" makes perfect sense for
"each (one) of the monkeys ate bananas".

In any case, the definition could be changed to "su'oi da poi PA mei ru'o
broda cu brode" if that's an issue.


>     But {me'i} and {za'u} can be considered prefixes. I had thought
>>     {me'i PA da} would mean {su'oi da poi me'i PA mei}. A definition in
>>     terms of {ru'o} would also be possible, but I'm not sure that it
>>     would be better. It would mean allowing prefixes (like "<" and ">")
>>     to turn non-{ru'o} numerical quantifiers into {ru'o}-type
>>     quantifiers, and this requires a good justification.
>>
>> What do you mean by non-ru'o numerical quantifiers? su'oi, ro'oi, no'oi,
>> me'oi are non-ru'o, in the sense that they don't expand to a "su'oi da
>> poi PA mei" form. (I don't even know what "PA mei" would mean for them.)
>>
>
> Sorry if I wasn't clear. I meant "non-{ru'o}" in a {noi} way. All
> numerical quantifiers are of the non-{ru'o} type. Your prefixes turn them
> into {ru'o} types.


I meant that all numerical quantifiers work with the same expansion whether
or not they contain the prefixes da'a/su'o/su'e/me'i/za'u/ji'i. They are
all ru'o-types.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 3:45 PM, selpahi <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"m=
ailto:seladwa@gmx.de" target=3D"_blank">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;bo=
rder-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"gmail-">On 10.10.2016 02:08, Jorge Lla=
mb=C3=ADas wrote:<br>
</span><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;=
border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:=
solid;padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote><span class=3D"gmail-">
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Would &quot;no&quot; become &quot;no&#39;oi&quo=
t; as well?<br>
<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Yes, I believe it must and should.<br><br>
And singular &quot;no&quot; is then &quot;no pa&quot;, right?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Yes, I would say so.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t know if it=
&#39;s a good idea to use the same word for the digit &quot;0&quot; and the=
 (plural) quantifier &quot;~E&quot;.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>It coul=
d be confusing that &quot;no pa no&quot; is &quot;no ten&quot; rather than =
&quot;010&quot;.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border=
-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><spa=
n class=3D"gmail-"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0p=
x 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border=
-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">
I think the expansion should be:<br>
<br>
=C2=A0PA broda cu brode -&gt; su&#39;oi da poi PA mei lo broda cu brode<br>
<br>
which I think would work for all the numeric quantifiers:<br>
[da&#39;a][su&#39;o|su&#39;e|me&#39;i|za&#39;u|ji&#39;<wbr>i] n; so&#39;V; =
du&#39;e, mo&#39;a, rau; and also for<br>
ru&#39;o.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
This seems to be pretty much the same as the {ru&#39;o} expansion.<br>
<br>
But I think it&#39;s only equivalent if you subscribe to {lo}&#39;s maximal=
ity. (It wouldn&#39;t be the first expansion that presupposes maximality ev=
en though we never decided that {lo} must have maximality)<br>
<br>
So, I take it, you do subscribe to maximality? (I do)</blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div>I subscribe to a version of it where generic is maximal. I think=
 for example that &quot;ro (pa) lo smani pu citka lo badna&quot; makes perf=
ect sense for &quot;each (one) of the monkeys ate bananas&quot;.</div><div>=
<br></div><div>In any case, the definition could be changed to &quot;su&#39=
;oi da poi PA mei ru&#39;o broda cu brode&quot; if that&#39;s an issue.</di=
v><div>=C2=A0=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);=
border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"gmail-"><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width=
:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex">=C2=A0 =C2=A0 But {me&#39;i} and {za&#39;u} can be considered prefix=
es. I had thought<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 {me&#39;i PA da} would mean {su&#39;oi da poi me&#39;i PA mei=
}. A definition in<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 terms of {ru&#39;o} would also be possible, but I&#39;m not s=
ure that it<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 would be better. It would mean allowing prefixes (like &quot;=
&lt;&quot; and &quot;&gt;&quot;)<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 to turn non-{ru&#39;o} numerical quantifiers into {ru&#39;o}-=
type<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 quantifiers, and this requires a good justification.<br><br>
What do you mean by non-ru&#39;o numerical quantifiers? su&#39;oi, ro&#39;o=
i, no&#39;oi,<br>
me&#39;oi are non-ru&#39;o, in the sense that they don&#39;t expand to a &q=
uot;su&#39;oi da<br>
poi PA mei&quot; form. (I don&#39;t even know what &quot;PA mei&quot; would=
 mean for them.)<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Sorry if I wasn&#39;t clear. I meant &quot;non-{ru&#39;o}&quot; in a {noi} =
way. All numerical quantifiers are of the non-{ru&#39;o} type. Your prefixe=
s turn them into {ru&#39;o} types.</blockquote><div><br></div><div>I meant =
that all numerical quantifiers work with the same expansion whether or not =
they contain the prefixes da&#39;a/su&#39;o/su&#39;e/me&#39;i/za&#39;u/ji&#=
39;i. They are all ru&#39;o-types.<br></div><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi=
&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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