Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 23:19:14 -0800 (PST)
From: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: [lojban] Re: Young ex-presidents and abandoned houses
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Em ter=C3=A7a-feira, 15 de novembro de 2016 16:43:40 UTC+3, selpa'i escreve=
u:
>
> Adjectival participles.=20
>
> Lojban does not have them, but let's look at the known options for=20
> translating phrases such as "to be a young ex-president" and "to be an=20
> abandoned house". What these have in common is that they contain two=20
> tanru units, at least one of which wants to be preceded by a=20
> tense/aspect/modal. This is not grammatically possible, because=20
> tense/aspect/modal tags apply to entire selbri and not to tanru units,=20
> and they cannot appear in the middle of a tanru. The following=20
> work-arounds are known to be available:=20
>
> 1) BE: {citno jatna be ba'o ku}, {se cliva be ba'o ku zdadi'u}=20
> 2) POI'I: {citno poi'i [ke'a] ba'o jatna kei}, {poi'i [ke'a] ba'o se=20
> cliva kei zdadi'u}=20
> 3) ZEI: {citno ba'o-zei-jatna}, {ba'o-zei-selcliva zdadi'u}=20
> 4) lujvo, but this only works with a few tags=20
> 5) GU'E (and possibly {ke}): {gu'e citno gi ba'o jatna} (not allowed),=20
> {gu'e ba'o se cliva gi zdadi'u} (allowed)=20
> 6) ME LO: {citno me lo ba'o jatna}, {me lo ba'o se cliva poi [ke'a]=20
> zdadi'u} / {me lo ba'o se cliva me'u zdadi'u}=20
>
> Option 1 is ugly to me because of the change in word order and the {ku}.=
=20
> Option 2 is very flexible and very verbose and very complex (it=20
> increases the nesting by one level)=20
> Option 3 is not practical when the tanru unit consists of more than one=
=20
> brivla (e.g. {se jai broda} or {na'e se broda}) as {zei} would then have=
=20
> to be placed between all the words.=20
> Option 4 is not at all general.=20
> Option 5 has potential but requires forethought, and {gu'e} also can=20
> claims too much, since it merges all the places, not just the x1 (just=20
> like {je}).=20
> Option 6 needlessly involves a sumti, which seems backwards to me,=20
> because I believe that predicates should be the base case and sumti=20
> should be derived from them, and not vice versa.=20
>
> If tag + tanru_unit yielded a tanru_unit instead of a selbri, then=20
> {(citno (ba'o jatna))} would be a valid tanru, as would {(ba'o se cliva=
=20
> (zdadi'u))}. However, this would require a lot more {cu} everywhere,=20
> specifically anywhere TAG was used in place of {cu} to close all the=20
> preceding constructs.=20
>
> I am looking for practical solutions to this rather commonly encountered=
=20
> problem.=20
>
> ~~~mi'e la solpa'i=20
>


The problem seems to be rooted in an attempt to translate adjective and=20
nouns using lo tanru.

In different experimental grammars that are backward compatible {citno ke=
=20
be ba'o ralju jatna} is possible btw.

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>Em ter=C3=A7a-feira, 15 de novembro de 2016 16:43:=
40 UTC+3, selpa&#39;i  escreveu:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"=
margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;=
">Adjectival participles.
<br>
<br>Lojban does not have them, but let&#39;s look at the known options for=
=20
<br>translating phrases such as &quot;to be a young ex-president&quot; and =
&quot;to be an=20
<br>abandoned house&quot;. What these have in common is that they contain t=
wo=20
<br>tanru units, at least one of which wants to be preceded by a=20
<br>tense/aspect/modal. This is not grammatically possible, because=20
<br>tense/aspect/modal tags apply to entire selbri and not to tanru units,=
=20
<br>and they cannot appear in the middle of a tanru. The following=20
<br>work-arounds are known to be available:
<br>
<br>1) BE: {citno jatna be ba&#39;o ku}, {se cliva be ba&#39;o ku zdadi&#39=
;u}
<br>2) POI&#39;I: {citno poi&#39;i [ke&#39;a] ba&#39;o jatna kei}, {poi&#39=
;i [ke&#39;a] ba&#39;o se=20
<br>cliva kei zdadi&#39;u}
<br>3) ZEI: {citno ba&#39;o-zei-jatna}, {ba&#39;o-zei-selcliva zdadi&#39;u}
<br>4) lujvo, but this only works with a few tags
<br>5) GU&#39;E (and possibly {ke}): {gu&#39;e citno gi ba&#39;o jatna} (no=
t allowed),=20
<br>{gu&#39;e ba&#39;o se cliva gi zdadi&#39;u} (allowed)
<br>6) ME LO: {citno me lo ba&#39;o jatna}, {me lo ba&#39;o se cliva poi [k=
e&#39;a]=20
<br>zdadi&#39;u} / {me lo ba&#39;o se cliva me&#39;u zdadi&#39;u}
<br>
<br>Option 1 is ugly to me because of the change in word order and the {ku}=
.
<br>Option 2 is very flexible and very verbose and very complex (it=20
<br>increases the nesting by one level)
<br>Option 3 is not practical when the tanru unit consists of more than one=
=20
<br>brivla (e.g. {se jai broda} or {na&#39;e se broda}) as {zei} would then=
 have=20
<br>to be placed between all the words.
<br>Option 4 is not at all general.
<br>Option 5 has potential but requires forethought, and {gu&#39;e} also ca=
n=20
<br>claims too much, since it merges all the places, not just the x1 (just=
=20
<br>like {je}).
<br>Option 6 needlessly involves a sumti, which seems backwards to me,=20
<br>because I believe that predicates should be the base case and sumti=20
<br>should be derived from them, and not vice versa.
<br>
<br>If tag + tanru_unit yielded a tanru_unit instead of a selbri, then=20
<br>{(citno (ba&#39;o jatna))} would be a valid tanru, as would {(ba&#39;o =
se cliva=20
<br>(zdadi&#39;u))}. However, this would require a lot more {cu} everywhere=
,=20
<br>specifically anywhere TAG was used in place of {cu} to close all the=20
<br>preceding constructs.
<br>
<br>I am looking for practical solutions to this rather commonly encountere=
d=20
<br>problem.
<br>
<br>~~~mi&#39;e la solpa&#39;i
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>The problem seems to be=
 rooted in an attempt to translate adjective and nouns using lo tanru.</div=
><div><br></div><div>In different experimental grammars that are backward c=
ompatible {citno ke be ba&#39;o ralju jatna} is possible btw.</div></div>

<p></p>

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