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From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 10:12:57 -0500
Message-ID: <CAKOEKkTbeeBpSi=VEQ558ouWdrsS3fV2bay8GmexPmu4J+qfrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Young ex-presidents and abandoned houses
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selpa'i,

  You failed to mention one other workaround, using an almost-equivalent
bridi for the tag -- citno ke purci  jatna

   (don't know why I chose  to respond to this email.  I"m still reading
email from lasst January.  Xonsider yourself special)
                --gejyspa


On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 8:43 AM, selpahi <seladwa@gmx.de> wrote:

> Adjectival participles.
>
> Lojban does not have them, but let's look at the known options for
> translating phrases such as "to be a young ex-president" and "to be an
> abandoned house". What these have in common is that they contain two tanr=
u
> units, at least one of which wants to be preceded by a tense/aspect/modal=
.
> This is not grammatically possible, because tense/aspect/modal tags apply
> to entire selbri and not to tanru units, and they cannot appear in the
> middle of a tanru. The following work-arounds are known to be available:
>
> 1) BE: {citno jatna be ba'o ku}, {se cliva be ba'o ku zdadi'u}
> 2) POI'I: {citno poi'i [ke'a] ba'o jatna kei}, {poi'i [ke'a] ba'o se cliv=
a
> kei zdadi'u}
> 3) ZEI: {citno ba'o-zei-jatna}, {ba'o-zei-selcliva zdadi'u}
> 4) lujvo, but this only works with a few tags
> 5) GU'E (and possibly {ke}): {gu'e citno gi ba'o jatna} (not allowed),
> {gu'e ba'o se cliva gi zdadi'u} (allowed)
> 6) ME LO: {citno me lo ba'o jatna}, {me lo ba'o se cliva poi [ke'a]
> zdadi'u} / {me lo ba'o se cliva me'u zdadi'u}
>
> Option 1 is ugly to me because of the change in word order and the {ku}.
> Option 2 is very flexible and very verbose and very complex (it increases
> the nesting by one level)
> Option 3 is not practical when the tanru unit consists of more than one
> brivla (e.g. {se jai broda} or {na'e se broda}) as {zei} would then have =
to
> be placed between all the words.
> Option 4 is not at all general.
> Option 5 has potential but requires forethought, and {gu'e} also can
> claims too much, since it merges all the places, not just the x1 (just li=
ke
> {je}).
> Option 6 needlessly involves a sumti, which seems backwards to me, becaus=
e
> I believe that predicates should be the base case and sumti should be
> derived from them, and not vice versa.
>
> If tag + tanru_unit yielded a tanru_unit instead of a selbri, then {(citn=
o
> (ba'o jatna))} would be a valid tanru, as would {(ba'o se cliva
> (zdadi'u))}. However, this would require a lot more {cu} everywhere,
> specifically anywhere TAG was used in place of {cu} to close all the
> preceding constructs.
>
> I am looking for practical solutions to this rather commonly encountered
> problem.
>
> ~~~mi'e la solpa'i
>
> ---
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>
> --
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<div dir=3D"ltr">selpa&#39;i,<br><br>=C2=A0 You failed to mention one other=
 workaround, using an almost-equivalent bridi for the tag -- citno ke purci=
 =C2=A0jatna<br><br>=C2=A0 =C2=A0(don&#39;t know why I chose =C2=A0to respo=
nd to this email.=C2=A0 I&quot;m still reading email from lasst January.=C2=
=A0 Xonsider yourself special)<br><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa</div><div><br></div></div><div class=3D"gmai=
l_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 8:43 AM, se=
lpahi <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:seladwa@gmx.de" target=3D"_bl=
ank">seladwa@gmx.de</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quo=
te" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
>Adjectival participles.<br>
<br>
Lojban does not have them, but let&#39;s look at the known options for tran=
slating phrases such as &quot;to be a young ex-president&quot; and &quot;to=
 be an abandoned house&quot;. What these have in common is that they contai=
n two tanru units, at least one of which wants to be preceded by a tense/as=
pect/modal. This is not grammatically possible, because tense/aspect/modal =
tags apply to entire selbri and not to tanru units, and they cannot appear =
in the middle of a tanru. The following work-arounds are known to be availa=
ble:<br>
<br>
1) BE: {citno jatna be ba&#39;o ku}, {se cliva be ba&#39;o ku zdadi&#39;u}<=
br>
2) POI&#39;I: {citno poi&#39;i [ke&#39;a] ba&#39;o jatna kei}, {poi&#39;i [=
ke&#39;a] ba&#39;o se cliva kei zdadi&#39;u}<br>
3) ZEI: {citno ba&#39;o-zei-jatna}, {ba&#39;o-zei-selcliva zdadi&#39;u}<br>
4) lujvo, but this only works with a few tags<br>
5) GU&#39;E (and possibly {ke}): {gu&#39;e citno gi ba&#39;o jatna} (not al=
lowed), {gu&#39;e ba&#39;o se cliva gi zdadi&#39;u} (allowed)<br>
6) ME LO: {citno me lo ba&#39;o jatna}, {me lo ba&#39;o se cliva poi [ke=
9;a] zdadi&#39;u} / {me lo ba&#39;o se cliva me&#39;u zdadi&#39;u}<br>
<br>
Option 1 is ugly to me because of the change in word order and the {ku}.<br=
>
Option 2 is very flexible and very verbose and very complex (it increases t=
he nesting by one level)<br>
Option 3 is not practical when the tanru unit consists of more than one bri=
vla (e.g. {se jai broda} or {na&#39;e se broda}) as {zei} would then have t=
o be placed between all the words.<br>
Option 4 is not at all general.<br>
Option 5 has potential but requires forethought, and {gu&#39;e} also can cl=
aims too much, since it merges all the places, not just the x1 (just like {=
je}).<br>
Option 6 needlessly involves a sumti, which seems backwards to me, because =
I believe that predicates should be the base case and sumti should be deriv=
ed from them, and not vice versa.<br>
<br>
If tag + tanru_unit yielded a tanru_unit instead of a selbri, then {(citno =
(ba&#39;o jatna))} would be a valid tanru, as would {(ba&#39;o se cliva (zd=
adi&#39;u))}. However, this would require a lot more {cu} everywhere, speci=
fically anywhere TAG was used in place of {cu} to close all the preceding c=
onstructs.<br>
<br>
I am looking for practical solutions to this rather commonly encountered pr=
oblem.<br>
<br>
~~~mi&#39;e la solpa&#39;i<br>
<br>
---<br>
Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft.<br>
<a href=3D"https://www.avast.com/antivirus" rel=3D"noreferrer" target=3D"_b=
lank">https://www.avast.com/antiviru<wbr>s</a><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font =
color=3D"#888888"><br>
<br>
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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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