Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Mon, 2 Jan 2017 23:54:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Curtis Franks <curtis.w.franks@gmail.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: [lojban] Re: NOIhA (blog article)
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Oh, just an interesting note:

"broda poi'a purci" is the correct re=C3=ABxpression for "pu broda". Tense =
in=20
Lojban is aoristic; it happening in the past does not have any implications=
=20
concerning that that action could not have continued into the present of=20
future, or that another event which could be described in otherwise=20
identical fashion cannot be happening (again) in the present or could not=
=20
happen (again) in the future. The restrictive nature of "poi'a" encodes the=
=20
possibility that other versions of what is otherwise the same bridi notion=
=20
exist truthfully. (You got this correct, btw. I am just making an=20
observation, which I find interesting, for the record. It might even become=
=20
handy for future discussions/lessons/introductions - or this one, if you=20
edit it (but I am not suggesting that you should do so)).

This means that we now have a symmetric and easy way to express exclusive=
=20
(non-aoristic) tenses. Before, we would have needed to include "po'o"=20
(example: ~"pu po'o broda") or to use negated AND connectives (example: "pu=
=20
jenai ca jenai ba broda") in order to express this meaning. Now, we can=20
just use "noi'a" (example: "broda noi'a purci").

___

I do worry about the interaction between "noi'a" with a temporal tense and=
=20
other nontemporal tenses. Since space and time are symmetric in Lojbanic=20
treatment, saying that it happened only in the past might mean that it did=
=20
not happen at any spatial location (because the only tense applicable is=20
the past, not any location tense). Likewise, "noi'a purci" (and nothing=20
more) might mean that the event occurred in the past and nothing else,=20
which means that it could not have occurred at any spatial location.=20
Clearly, both of these interpretations are nonsensical because 'events'=20
which occur must have done so both in some nonempty region of space and=20
during some nonempty interval of time. Now, in the "pu po'o" case, I think=
=20
that this is a much more serious (although possibly circumventable)=20
problem; but in the "noi'a purci" case, it might be possible to make some=
=20
sort of argument against it due to the nature of selbri/brivla. But I am=20
not sure. It still seems dangerous to me.

On Monday, October 17, 2016 at 8:43:21 AM UTC-4, selpa'i wrote:
>
> The cmavo of selma'o NOIhA are all the hype right now =E2=80=94 everyone'=
s=20
> talking about them.=20
>
> I wish.=20
>
> Somehow most people have never even heard of NOIhA. A good while ago, in=
=20
> March 2016 to be exact, I wrote what was to this day the only written=20
> documentation of NOIhA out there. But... it's in Lojban:=20
>
> http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/zo-xoi-joi-lo-se-srana-be-ri=20
>
> I think very few people have read that article. Shocking, I know!=20
>
> Well, anyway.=20
>
> Since I consider NOIhA absolutely necessary, the best way to raise=20
> awareness is to write about it in English. That is the purpose of the=20
> present article.=20
>
> https://solpahi.wordpress.com/2016/10/13/noiha/=20
>
> ---=20
> Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft.=
=20
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus=20
>
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">Oh, just an interesting note:<br><br>&quot;broda poi&#39;a=
 purci&quot; is the correct re=C3=ABxpression for &quot;pu broda&quot;. Ten=
se in Lojban is aoristic; it happening in the past does not have any implic=
ations concerning that that action could not have continued into the presen=
t of future, or that another event which could be described in otherwise id=
entical fashion cannot be happening (again) in the present or could not hap=
pen (again) in the future. The restrictive nature of &quot;poi&#39;a&quot; =
encodes the possibility that other versions of what is otherwise the same b=
ridi notion exist truthfully. (You got this correct, btw. I am just making =
an observation, which I find interesting, for the record. It might even bec=
ome handy for future discussions/lessons/introductions - or this one, if yo=
u edit it (but I am not suggesting that you should do so)).<br><br>This mea=
ns that we now have a symmetric and easy way to express exclusive (non-aori=
stic) tenses. Before, we would have needed to include &quot;po&#39;o&quot; =
(example: ~&quot;pu po&#39;o broda&quot;) or to use negated AND connectives=
 (example: &quot;pu jenai ca jenai ba broda&quot;) in order to express this=
 meaning. Now, we can just use &quot;noi&#39;a&quot; (example: &quot;broda =
noi&#39;a purci&quot;).<br><br>___<br><br>I do worry about the interaction =
between &quot;noi&#39;a&quot; with a temporal tense and other nontemporal t=
enses. Since space and time are symmetric in Lojbanic treatment, saying tha=
t it happened only in the past might mean that it did not happen at any spa=
tial location (because the only tense applicable is the past, not any locat=
ion tense). Likewise, &quot;noi&#39;a purci&quot; (and nothing more) might =
mean that the event occurred in the past and nothing else, which means that=
 it could not have occurred at any spatial location. Clearly, both of these=
 interpretations are nonsensical because &#39;events&#39; which occur must =
have done so both in some nonempty region of space and during some nonempty=
 interval of time. Now, in the &quot;pu po&#39;o&quot; case, I think that t=
his is a much more serious (although possibly circumventable) problem; but =
in the &quot;noi&#39;a purci&quot; case, it might be possible to make some =
sort of argument against it due to the nature of selbri/brivla. But I am no=
t sure. It still seems dangerous to me.<br><br>On Monday, October 17, 2016 =
at 8:43:21 AM UTC-4, selpa&#39;i wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" st=
yle=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t: 1ex;">The cmavo of selma&#39;o NOIhA are all the hype right now =E2=80=
=94 everyone&#39;s=20
<br>talking about them.
<br>
<br>I wish.
<br>
<br>Somehow most people have never even heard of NOIhA. A good while ago, i=
n=20
<br>March 2016 to be exact, I wrote what was to this day the only written=
=20
<br>documentation of NOIhA out there. But... it&#39;s in Lojban:
<br>
<br><a href=3D"http://selpahi.weebly.com/lojban/zo-xoi-joi-lo-se-srana-be-r=
i" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http:=
//www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fselpahi.weebly.com%2Flojban%2Fzo-xoi=
-joi-lo-se-srana-be-ri\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNHUZiJOkXgZwD=
j08XS0ehfFSswHDg&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.=
google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3A%2F%2Fselpahi.weebly.com%2Flojban%2Fzo-xoi-joi-l=
o-se-srana-be-ri\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNHUZiJOkXgZwDj08XS0=
ehfFSswHDg&#39;;return true;">http://selpahi.weebly.com/<wbr>lojban/zo-xoi-=
joi-lo-se-srana-<wbr>be-ri</a>
<br>
<br>I think very few people have read that article. Shocking, I know!
<br>
<br>Well, anyway.
<br>
<br>Since I consider NOIhA absolutely necessary, the best way to raise=20
<br>awareness is to write about it in English. That is the purpose of the=
=20
<br>present article.
<br>
<br><a href=3D"https://solpahi.wordpress.com/2016/10/13/noiha/" target=3D"_=
blank" rel=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.=
com/url?q\x3dhttps%3A%2F%2Fsolpahi.wordpress.com%2F2016%2F10%2F13%2Fnoiha%2=
F\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNEUoiRC5_qin43IaILh2fAZJHYYrw&#39;=
;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;https://www.google.com/url?q\x3d=
https%3A%2F%2Fsolpahi.wordpress.com%2F2016%2F10%2F13%2Fnoiha%2F\x26sa\x3dD\=
x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNEUoiRC5_qin43IaILh2fAZJHYYrw&#39;;return true;=
">https://solpahi.wordpress.com/<wbr>2016/10/13/noiha/</a>
<br>
<br>---
<br>Diese E-Mail wurde von Avast Antivirus-Software auf Viren gepr=C3=BCft.
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ps%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fantivirus\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQj=
CNFKLvnpDv0lgK5pU3VEfIU9tx2wrg&#39;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#=
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<br>
<br></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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