Received: from mail-io0-f183.google.com ([209.85.223.183]:34596) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1cTEMu-0003z7-7C for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 12:59:12 -0800 Received: by mail-io0-f183.google.com with SMTP id c80sf38789967iod.1 for ; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 12:59:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=XATNR6ksh3UB38jq9/AvqYjBcJUdb+u/pnBDClbXWqM=; b=QQPzDwl/MYplABVX54TmrhO4yoBPOfX9LJ47rXip+CIR8iyIGpcy+FrSu1WhYzBhIm 2iEAX3afKGh0CiU+8AnAmeVY2Z9POjCTdwsxhcd8rCckvr8Ey3PsYwreUmVAkbPXqv7c Pv5ZJtYnH7Qe4z7B8rOx/N/vXrrdjf2Iu+sPPTbwSIB7qUV/m1jJ6V5Sgi1ayPbgFXCA OBGNfQkC/qmeTl6jMdEUn07tMs0gdQS8jAiZtk3zoF5OXKxUa+fscPbxWP4wHekGMyns cTPqQyA0OAKx9jIsMfDKHXlRLSBrWJXdJrl+LB0Q+BXlPAZf9s0akdKKnHK0QrNzNnQQ q2lQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=mail-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=XATNR6ksh3UB38jq9/AvqYjBcJUdb+u/pnBDClbXWqM=; b=PO6r4bzQyxTbOr/bIPmByAOuR2EUiYwSw82ZrT4GB+kfU67I1eHC8SAmPeikMoo4AR UFs0qZQ3wdRtKYmyVgm1DS39rvGsH8QI/KqiRGhV0/PUt72hGjMKlE1isvlEIUvxYyF1 UBfsZz7lzolUxBy7zp19z/10o7vtUo8UK47gxiV76aMv71MLYGa0xyNSgSkmssgToUDt zD8sFXT3vIAzCBAqtaWay7zP/ffkzrMQYcu9YSKw3JN1TAtgqm5oZ5ncpHjRh4IkgiwX W9b5tupat9CCsBBW3ycdlGYOfsWl7HVsIal+TNTu+/68A0BWeutUeqNF7JVIQMqaMhlM KoWg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=XATNR6ksh3UB38jq9/AvqYjBcJUdb+u/pnBDClbXWqM=; b=bOdCXNcYp2DGHN9jVvSDjRnAIf7CGPFxJUeFjmQvk8qvTeyTDAhjhbtrDXitjPQ8uh xN+53pvFdPvWz+sqPg4oO6XlmWjO4OqXXUcz5H/LiGVJsHnppvjKLiOtmhGkSANsxzLB kSpaZI8s8Sffc/pRuYqkBi71t9Hal5PO+rLMEqGdAZ+1FliHWZERqyJ7JBN9IYX2ZE3p P0xrUufKlCmdh0gD0jiLpf2qGIiAt8RiEl/HR+b2NIeubMCncj0dAyjH3u1FTmn9ZW47 Jf010QXF9D7T+HeBpt1drDlVzLHyLHere4I6c6ae332PCWD/7tA4SGvU+/U9/1wBshtv 51AA== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLUrx32uudvFNcoPNuy7LohYDbHdwPI/P+7a/gYyhOM2PXMWlFHatGE44FiXvwXmQ== X-Received: by 10.157.52.34 with SMTP id v31mr1009644otb.9.1484600341499; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 12:59:01 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.157.38.42 with SMTP id a39ls7356494otb.26.gmail; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 12:59:01 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.157.36.193 with SMTP id z59mr569707ota.1.1484600341191; Mon, 16 Jan 2017 12:59:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2017 12:59:00 -0800 (PST) From: Joshua Taylor To: lojban Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <183b72a7-dc9a-44e6-91a5-2e17b6398cde@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Let it Go - In Lojban MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_3008_704328428.1484600340651" X-Original-Sender: jtt96@mail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_3008_704328428.1484600340651 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3009_541263980.1484600340651" ------=_Part_3009_541263980.1484600340651 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable After I first posted this I made some of the corrections before dropping=20 the project (and lojban). Recently I decided to start working through my=20 pile of reviews on gismu on memrise because why not. I've forgotten most of= =20 them, but it's always so rewarding to correctly answer something that=20 probably hasn't crossed my mind for about two years. Or even to just get=20 one or two letters off. I decided to look this thread up again and=20 implement the corrections. I have just finished doing that. About your comment on stress. I think two years ago (at the time I first=20 wrote this) I would have disagreed with you, but reading it again, you're= =20 completely right. If I were to start over, I'd be a little more loose with= =20 the syllable counts and put more weight on lining of the stresses. Though= =20 to be fair, my thinking back then, I remember, was that it would be sung by= =20 breaking lojbanic stress rules when necessary. My reasoning was that while= =20 there is a correct and a wrong way to place stress on lojban jufra, there= =20 are no minimal pairs for stress: it never changes the meaning of anything.= =20 Is this correct? Plus, natlangs do crazier stuff. Japanese has phonemic=20 vowel length, but they'll throw that overboard if necessary in a song. I=20 believe Mandarin does a similar thing with pitch-accent. So while today I would be looser with my syllable counts and more or less= =20 aim for matching stress (though not religiously), I don't think my original= =20 reasoning was particularly flawed. Regarding nelci. I don't remember my exact reasons, but I believe I was=20 using a pdf dictionary and ctrl-f (didn't know about regex back then or=20 some of the searches would have been so much easier) to look up words, not= =20 vlasisku. So I probably tried to think of the simplest version of the=20 concept I wanted, and started my search with that. Or it could be that I=20 simply remembered nelci from doing gismu flashcards and only looked it up= =20 to confirm its definition. Regardless, I would have rejected your=20 suggestion for being too verbose, see the above two paragraphs. -- Joshua Taylor On Monday, September 1, 2014 at 2:13:44 PM UTC-4, gejyspa wrote: > > A few places Wuzzy didn't address, djac: >> >> d7. .i drani cu canci Perfection vanishes. > > > Once again, missing a mandatory article=20 > > c1. .i lo mi facki cu bancu My discovery exceeds a=20 >> limit. > > > That says your discoverer exceeds a limit. Once again, you would nee= d=20 > "se facki" instead of "facki" > > Wuzzy: > >> > d5. .i pe'a mi vu cermurse >> Quoted directly from the CLL: >> =E2=80=9CThe cmavo =E2=80=98pe'a=E2=80=99 is the indicator of figurative= speech, indicating >> that the previous word should be taken figuratively rather than >> literally:=E2=80=9D >> I don=E2=80=99t think you meant the sentence seperator figuritavely, imp= lying >> that you use Lojban=E2=80=99s grammar as a metaphor. XD >> I *think* =E2=80=9Cpe'a=E2=80=9D belongs after =E2=80=9Ccermurse=E2=80= =9D. But I really don=E2=80=99t know. >> The CLL is not very clear on how to use =E2=80=9Cpe'a=E2=80=9D. > > pe'a is a UI, and indeed, works just like other UI, in that it modifie= s=20 > the previous word, and if that word is a terminator word of a structure, = or=20 > the start of a structure, it modifies that entire structure. In other=20 > words, using pe'a at the beginning of a sentence is the same as using "a'= o"=20 > at the beginning of a sentence. It applies to the whole sentence. The= =20 > original line is fine as is. > > > Stylisitically, I am wondering why both you, djac, and djeikon both=20 > chose to use "nelci" as a basis for "the cold never bothered me anyway",= =20 > that is, reframing it from a non-dislike to a like, which is not=20 > equivalent. Why not something in the nature "lo za'i lenku na'e selfanza= =20 > mi"? > > And speaking of style, djac, actually syllable count is exactly the=20 > wrong thing to keep in mind when you are translating. What you want is t= he=20 > same number of STRESSED syllables, and to have them appear in the right= =20 > meter (but you can fudge unstressed syllables a bit). So, for example,= =20 > your line "i zifcru .i zifcru" doesn't work, because the original is "let= =20 > it GO, let it GO", and your translation is ".i ZIF cru, i ZIF cru",=20 > amphibrachic instead of anapestic. So, if you want to be punctilious,=20 > you've failed. So you might as well be freer with your self-opposed=20 > syllable-count constraint, which is chimeric anyway. > > My two cents, > --gejyspa > > > =20 > On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Joshua Anon = >=20 > wrote: > >> I decided to translate 'Let it Go' from 'Frozen' into Lojban; but given= =20 >> that I'm doing this as a convenient way to utilize Lojban as I'm learnin= g=20 >> it: I am sure I have made many mistakes. I have placed the Lojban=20 >> translation on the left with the corresponding English version of what I= =20 >> think I said in Lojban on the right. If the two don't basically match up= =20 >> line for line, than I have made a mistake. I have not translated the=20 >> attitudinals when they occur at the beginning of a bridi. At the end I h= ave=20 >> some specific questions about things I am unsure of or suspect are wrong= . >> >> This probably goes without saying, but I don't own any rights to Lojban= =20 >> nor to the movie 'Frozen' or it's song 'Let it Go'. >> >> >> a1. .aunai snime cu carvi le cmana Snow precipitates upon= =20 >> the mountain. >> a2. .i vi claxu lo pluta Here there is no path. >> a3. .i mi sepli fe loi remna I am apart from people. >> a4. .i mi simlu lo turni I appear to relate in=20 >> some way to the act of governing. >> >> a5. .i tcima cu simsa le mi menli sevzi The weather is similar i= n=20 >> property to the mind of myself. >> a6. .i .ii mi fliba lo sezyfanta I fail at the control of= =20 >> myself. >> >> a7. .i ko na curmi lo viska You! (talking to self)= =20 >> Don't allow observance/seeing. >> a8. .i ko vrude lo do natmi marde You! (talking to self)= =20 >> Act so that you can rightly be deemed virtuous by the moral standards of= =20 >> your people group. >> a9. .i ko mipri fi le tcadu You! (talking to self)= =20 >> Keep a secret from the city. >> a0. .i ri djuno The city knows. >> >> b1. .i zifcru .i zifcru Release; Release. >> b2. .i do na jitro fe do It is not true that you= =20 >> (talking to self) control yourself. >> b3. .i zifcru .i zifcru Release; Release. >> b4. .i ko do'o se ganlo You! (talking to self)= =20 >> Make it so that access to you is denied to you and others. >> b5. .i cusku na selxanka mi I do not worry about som= e=20 >> unspecified someone expressing some unspecified something. >> b6. .i ko curmi ti You! (talking to self)= =20 >> Allow this. >> b7. .i .o'enai mi nelci lo lenku .o'enai I am fond of col= d. >> >> b8. .i minli darno lo sevzi darno cu gasnu The literal distance=20 >> brings about self-distance. >> b9. .i lono jitro terpa cu pagre fi mi .u'e None of the controlling= =20 >> fears enter the wondrous {.u'e} me. >> b0. .i mi facki lo kakne mi I discover the ability o= f=20 >> myself. >> c1. .i lo mi facki cu bancu My discovery exceeds a= =20 >> limit. >> c2. .i .ia zi'o marde fi mi .ia non-existant are=20 >> morals applying to me. >> c3. .einai Freedom. >> >> c4. .i zifcru .i zifcru Release; Release. >> c5. .i .uo mi brife joi tsani .uo I am the wind and th= e=20 >> sky. >> c6. .i zifcru .i zifcru Release; Release. >> c7. .i mi na'e klaku I will not be crying. >> c8. .i mi vi stali joi stodi I abide in one place and= =20 >> I am invariant. >> c9. .i curmi snime The permitted snow. >> >> c0. .i benji lo mi vlipa lo loldi fu ti My power is transfered t= o=20 >> the ground via this. >> d1. .i mi cupra lo spisa bisli lo pruxi sevzi I produce particulated= =20 >> crystal by means of my spiritual self. >> d2. .i lo pa bisli spoja pensi cu dunja One frozen exploding=20 >> thought congeals. >> d3. .i mi noroi xruti lo sevzi lo purci I am never returning=20 >> myself to a state from the past. >> >> d4. .i zifcru .i zifcru Release; Release. >> d5. .i pe'a mi vu cermurse Figuratively, I am the= =20 >> dawn there yonder. >> d6. .i zifcru .i zifcru Release; Release. >> d7. .i drani cu canci Perfection vanishes. >> d8. .i mi vi sanli lo cerni I stand here upon the da= y. >> d9. .i curmi snime The permitted snow. >> d0. .i o'enai mi nelci lo lenku .o'enai I am fond of col= d. >> >> >> a1: Should I use {lo} in place of {le} here? >> a3: Is {loi} correct here? or should it be {lo} or {lo'i}? >> a4: I tried working around {nolraitru}, but the syllabry wouldn't come= =20 >> out, so {turni} it is. >> a5: Is this even a valid grammatical construct? Can the words be used in= =20 >> this way? >> a7: I am made to understand that it is ok to use {ko} to command oneself= =20 >> if the context makes this usage evident. >> a8: Does this bridi communicate the correct general concept? >> a0: Is {ri} used correctly here? >> b1: Would {zifre} work better here? I'm on the fence about which to use. >> b4: Did I get any sumti places mixed up here? >> b5: Did I get any sumti places mixed up here? >> b8: Can anyone think of a better way to phrase this? It needs to have 13= =20 >> syllables and it would be prefferable if the syllabry was fixed. Try=20 >> singing it; the stress is wrong. >> b9: The {.u'e} is modifying {mi} to fix syllabry problems. Also, is=20 >> {lono} used correctly here? >> c2: Can {zi'o} be used in this way? >> c3: The problem is that it technically modifies {mi}, but there is a=20 >> pause in the song, so it should be ok, right? >> c5: Not sure if this sentence means what I think it means. >> c7: Is {na'e} the correct cmavo to use here? >> c8: Again, not sure if this sentence means what I think it means. >> c9: An observative. >> d1: I'm not sure about {pruxi sevzi}. Is there a better pair of gismu=20 >> that would communicate the concept of 'soul'? >> d3: Is {noroi} used correctly here? >> d5: Is {pe'a} used correctly? Is {vu} used correctly? >> >> >> Thanks you for your time, >> >> djac. >> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n=20 >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com=20 >> . >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_3009_541263980.1484600340651 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
After I first posted this I made some of the corrections b= efore dropping the project (and lojban). Recently I decided to start workin= g through my pile of reviews on gismu on memrise because why not. I've = forgotten most of them, but it's always so rewarding to correctly answe= r something that probably hasn't crossed my mind for about two years. O= r even to just get one or two letters off. I decided to look this thread up= again and implement the corrections. I have just finished doing that.
<= br>About your comment on stress. I think two years ago (at the time I first= wrote this) I would have disagreed with you, but reading it again, you'= ;re completely right. If I were to start over, I'd be a little more loo= se with the syllable counts and put more weight on lining of the stresses. = Though to be fair, my thinking back then, I remember, was that it would be = sung by breaking lojbanic stress rules when necessary. My reasoning was tha= t while there is a correct and a wrong way to place stress on lojban jufra,= there are no minimal pairs for stress: it never changes the meaning of any= thing. Is this correct? Plus, natlangs do crazier stuff. Japanese has phone= mic vowel length, but they'll throw that overboard if necessary in a so= ng. I believe Mandarin does a similar thing with pitch-accent.

So wh= ile today I would be looser with my syllable counts and more or less aim fo= r matching stress (though not religiously), I don't think my original r= easoning was particularly flawed.

Regarding nelci. I don't remem= ber my exact reasons, but I believe I was using=C2=A0 a pdf dictionary and = ctrl-f (didn't know about regex back then or some of the searches would= have been so much easier) to look up words, not vlasisku. So I probably tr= ied to think of the simplest version of the concept I wanted, and started m= y search with that. Or it could be that I simply remembered nelci from doin= g gismu flashcards and only looked it up to confirm its definition. Regardl= ess, I would have rejected your suggestion for being too verbose, see the a= bove two paragraphs.

-- Joshua Taylor

On Monday, September 1,= 2014 at 2:13:44 PM UTC-4, gejyspa wrote:
=C2=A0 A few places Wuzzy didn't address, d= jac:
d7. .i drani cu= canci=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 Perfection vanish= es.

=C2=A0 Once again, missing a man= datory article=C2=A0

c1. .i lo mi facki cu bancu=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 = =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 My discovery= exceeds a limit.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 That says your discoverer exceeds a limit= . =C2=A0Once again, you would need "se facki" instead of "fa= cki"

Wuzzy:
> d5. .i pe'a mi vu cermurse
Quoted directly from the CLL:
=E2= =80=9CThe cmavo =E2=80=98pe'a=E2=80=99 is the indicator of figurative s= peech, indicating
that the previous word should be taken figuratively ra= ther than
literally:=E2=80=9D
I don=E2=80=99t think you meant the sentence seperator figuritavely, implyi= ng
that you use Lojban=E2=80=99s grammar as a metaphor. XD
I *think* = =E2=80=9Cpe'a=E2=80=9D belongs after =E2=80=9Ccermurse=E2=80=9D. But I = really don=E2=80=99t know.
The CLL is not very clear on how to use =E2= =80=9Cpe'a=E2=80=9D.
=C2=A0 =C2=A0pe'a is a UI, and indeed, works just like other UI, i= n that it modifies the previous word, and if that word is a terminator word= of a structure, or the start of a structure, it modifies that entire struc= ture. =C2=A0In other words, using pe'a at the beginning of a sentence i= s the same as using "a'o" at the beginning of a sentence. =C2= =A0It applies to the whole sentence. =C2=A0The original line is fine as is.=


=C2=A0 Stylisitically, I am wondering wh= y both you, djac, and djeikon both chose to use "nelci" as a basi= s for "the cold never bothered me anyway", that is, reframing it = from a non-dislike to a like, which is not equivalent. =C2=A0Why not someth= ing in the nature "lo za'i lenku na'e selfanza mi"?

=C2=A0 And speaking of style, djac, actually syllable c= ount is exactly the wrong thing to keep in mind when you are translating. = =C2=A0What you want is the same number of STRESSED syllables, and to have t= hem appear in the right meter (but you can fudge unstressed syllables a bit= ). =C2=A0So, for example, your line "i zifcru .i zifcru" doesn= 9;t work, because the original is "let it GO, let it GO", and you= r translation is ".i ZIF cru, i ZIF cru", amphibrachic instead of= anapestic. So, if you want to be punctilious, you've failed. So you mi= ght as well be freer with your self-opposed syllable-count constraint, whic= h is chimeric anyway.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0My two cents,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0--gejyspa


=C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0=C2=A0
On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Joshua Anon <jt...@mail.com> wrote:

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.= com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/= d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
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