Received: from mail-pg0-f62.google.com ([74.125.83.62]:32913) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1cZlCc-0007yR-9C for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 03 Feb 2017 13:15:32 -0800 Received: by mail-pg0-f62.google.com with SMTP id 194sf15115243pgd.0 for ; Fri, 03 Feb 2017 13:15:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=pbHyOYnv4vaGltx0DzOUrDfdvO1TRi1s/gnZjF6/fR4=; b=TAbN3GwtH/5q1ekUGGXDC0ZO6s22NeyLFqoNDOECzME761JVsZUWm9ktlmMN5Uaihe 22ccY3BWpplPj0faaF9eb87KEG6lqc2q+myzYuMXqXPx0/rbYlfmUFGG1Y81/rGZMliU eW+srp6XU3dLcct1MAfDuoYhAHPxKhRAJ/4w00h7DgPUjMxVOo7dBsby1SJoT8iOv1dp Oce8BSIo0WFn27wpg49ZK3aprw99yqWuBJPYGHFO848X9NYjm4St0pxY9rKQwx4xJ1uN L6Mbij77cPY1uxM0LesHxWRx9B4CRElAlXHRcV/F+CPZHBXtYmEH0TxmhQEPnyu2e+U7 8GWw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=pbHyOYnv4vaGltx0DzOUrDfdvO1TRi1s/gnZjF6/fR4=; b=XqNPN3oQomcS89DLFMYObXZagjxIaqKTyoZ23+AOKsrGGve0boXHyMjLsD7mxIcVXv 6DAorxzvkskaq3V+sYUqa4dH69YwhIvVHgOj7ejlunursl3VJowJXn8S4JtPWKPQZUNk M9LLsit7fVV4RcO//oHrb31i+bsyKYxBgw5yJQOC9bp6gFDMS1T+V2P1ef9zMmZx4q8v ykXasKn6Dx4X7fLF0/DgSGD6Kl7kVIIL+mJH8VrUr1bJZG8cU7+wjtSxnlBpU8DgWn1z v5mbJivKBEQjwfe8zQTKNTyZEPpDt+rROlkrLwj+KnQUZ33+N9O8ddkJH+OW79gPObBA k2fQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=pbHyOYnv4vaGltx0DzOUrDfdvO1TRi1s/gnZjF6/fR4=; b=Ro8O+HHW91VN/uybjaZXipngcW2eVSZEXikYZYwZioK7uHn6w5YjI9Ve4jZip+2q/O Oq12FR2ZQhCigWfJtjU/nCHI7jTNzzCQ3r55Fmb4MRwbaGYbi0zxlCwrUJskj/oQb9J4 ekyKZ8lGzvN0K0yXdhEWHfd+NBbRem87+yikJHPhAt1XW/xuxWCm2q6MIfYq0Z9bfCms jU396jyumGraZPtj6tjbN9XEW8nMdS8k0T48Yj1Rk/tcu1zKQzZqEyzcodzYaE250C1l QNhR3c+BqtBWvAr+tnsjaGiYqiLhOdc1sF8+3JLV/nfYjvBfTbVssysqtppVTVt4kM7Z M18w== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AIkVDXLjD6Xn4SuGEozw8nC7DeMKbCmPW1zd+7UeHKXqBJK8vZ8LKbzqXtBaJDW1RffhWA== X-Received: by 10.157.35.89 with SMTP id k25mr1648573otd.11.1486156523912; Fri, 03 Feb 2017 13:15:23 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.157.45.170 with SMTP id g39ls7631491otb.1.gmail; Fri, 03 Feb 2017 13:15:23 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.157.36.193 with SMTP id z59mr1645500ota.1.1486156523665; Fri, 03 Feb 2017 13:15:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2017 13:15:23 -0800 (PST) From: vpbroman@gmail.com To: lojban Message-Id: <58888cdd-e241-4060-8ede-b45eec7b1f22@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <2b72a2dc-cbf9-4426-aa8a-dee3a4e30ace@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] elidable terminators and ambiguity MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_2589_1480474575.1486156523501" X-Original-Sender: vpbroman@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_2589_1480474575.1486156523501 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2590_1857193271.1486156523501" ------=_Part_2590_1857193271.1486156523501 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm afraid that the posted replies haven't shed a lot of light on this=20 subject for me. As I have read more elsewhere I've since come to the conclusion that=20 the "ambiguity" referred to in CLL which determines whether a terminator=20 may be elided refers to the ambiguity in the parsing process at the location of the=20 missing terminator, where the parser has only one token of lookahead to make a determination=20 (as in YACC). An ambiguity that requires more lookahead than that to resolve is=20 considered still ambiguous, and it disallows eliding the terminator in question. This covers the mlatu sisku case anyway. Since PEG grammars and other non-YACC parsers are widely used, and a lot of shoe-horning has to be done to make lojban go through YACC, I'm a little doubtful whether a grammatical rule that depends on YACC and= =20 LALR1 processing is realistic and well-chosen. mihe la bremenli pohu laho gy Vincent Broman gy On Thursday, September 1, 2016 at 1:00:41 PM UTC-7, uakci wrote: > > Nah, it doesn't work that way. First, =C2=ABmi noi le mlatu sisku cu sipn= a=C2=BB=20 > parses successfully. It means 'Me, whom the cat sleeps' (whatever the ide= a=20 > of a sleeped thing is). Second, Lojban doesn't have this notion of 'if th= is=20 > happens, then that doesn't parse'. If your =C2=ABku=C2=BB hasn't been clo= sed, the=20 > =C2=ABle=C2=BB will eat more than you want it to, even at the occasional = costs of not=20 > parsing. > > ~ uakci > > On Sep 1, 2016 8:15 PM, > wrote: > >> The {cu} is not elidable, it is optional, but leaving it in tends to mak= e=20 >> a lot of other things elidable. >> >> The reason that {ku} should be elidable (based on the rule) is that ther= e=20 >> is unambiguously only one place that the required {ku} could occupy. >> The phrase {mlatu sisku} can not be a tanru because {noi},{kuho} must=20 >> enclose a bridi, and {le mlatu sisku ku keha vau} is not a bridi. >> That clause no verb.=20 >> >> On Friday, August 26, 2016 at 4:02:51 PM UTC-7, Andrew wrote: >>> >>> The reason you can't leave out {ku} in {le mlatu ku sisku} is because i= t=20 >>> is already omitting {cu}. The longest form of this phrase would be {le= =20 >>> mlatu ku cu sisku}. Most people pretty much always omit either {ku} or= =20 >>> {cu}, but you need at least one between the x1 and the selbri. >>> >>> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n=20 >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com=20 >> . >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_2590_1857193271.1486156523501 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm afraid that the posted replies haven't shed a = lot of light on this subject for me.
As I have read more elsewhere I'= ;ve since come to the conclusion that
the "ambiguity" referre= d to in CLL which determines whether a terminator may be elided
refers t= o the ambiguity in the parsing process at the location of the missing termi= nator,
where the parser has only one token of lookahead to make a determ= ination (as in YACC).
An ambiguity that requires more lookahead than tha= t to resolve is considered still ambiguous,
and it disallows eliding the= terminator in question.
This covers the mlatu sisku case anyway.
Since PEG grammars and other non-YACC parsers are widely used,
and a lo= t of shoe-horning has to be done to make lojban go through YACC,
I'm= a little doubtful whether a grammatical rule that depends on YACC and LALR= 1 processing is realistic and well-chosen.

mihe la bremenli pohu lah= o gy Vincent Broman gy


On Thursday, September 1, 2016 at 1:00:41= PM UTC-7, uakci wrote:

Nah, it doesn't work that way. First, =C2=ABmi noi le mlatu si= sku cu sipna=C2=BB parses successfully. It means 'Me, whom the cat slee= ps' (whatever the idea of a sleeped thing is). Second, Lojban doesn'= ;t have this notion of 'if this happens, then that doesn't parse= 9;. If your =C2=ABku=C2=BB hasn't been closed, the =C2=ABle=C2=BB will = eat more than you want it to, even at the occasional costs of not parsing.<= /p>

~ uakci


On Sep 1, 2016 8:15 PM, <vpbr...@gmail.= com> wrote:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">The {cu} is not elidable, it is optional, but leaving it in= tends to make a lot of other things elidable.

The reason that {ku} = should be elidable (based on the rule) is that there is unambiguously only = one place that the required {ku} could occupy.
The phrase {mlatu sisku} = can not be a tanru because {noi},{kuho} must enclose a bridi, and {le mlatu= sisku ku keha vau} is not a bridi.
That clause no verb.

On Frid= ay, August 26, 2016 at 4:02:51 PM UTC-7, Andrew wrote:
The reason you can't leave out {ku}= in {le mlatu ku sisku} is because it is already omitting {cu}. The longest= form of this phrase would be {le mlatu ku cu sisku}. Most people pretty mu= ch always omit either {ku} or {cu}, but you need at least one between the x= 1 and the selbri.

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