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From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 11:18:36 +0200
Message-ID: <CAAQ0imM3ew3HSu0cjZXBvkm-5WjNU+izqaWQBTFE9x4BD_t2PQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Apologia, using h instead of yhy
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I've been away from lojban from quite some time but I'm still following the
language development.
For what is worth, I believe using ' rather than h has proven itself not to
bring any advantage.
The reasons brought up in CLL don't really stand, imho.  I don't see how
explaining morphology is any simpler or what harms causes 'h' being
"heavier" than '.
As you rightly pointed out, it makes writing program that parse lojban text
(slightly) more complex that it should be.
Also on any computer system we *have* to use h in identifiers as the single
quote has a special meaninge (e.g. jbofihe).
Also, at least to me, the quote visually breaks the continuity of the text
and it requires much more focus and attention to read.

By the way, Italian (my mother tongue) has no /h/ sound and this makes
difficult for me to correctly pronounce ' . The letter 'h' has no
phonological value (is never pronounced) but it's used sa a mark to
distinguinsh (in writing) words with the same sound:

   hanno -> they have
   anno -> year

or change the pronunciation of c and g before i and e:

  CIao     t=CA=83
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palato-alveolar_affricate>
  CHIave k <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_velar_stop>


  GIoco  d=CA=92 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_palato-alveolar_affr=
icate>
  GHIro  =C9=A1 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_velar_stop>


That said, I think that slipping toward h and leaving ' as an historical
feature would only be beneficial for the language.

muho mihe la remod.


On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 12:34 AM, <vpbroman@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I was questioned on my usually using "h" instead of " ' " in lojban,
> so I would like to explain my reasoning and usage preference,
> and I invite constructive criticism, since I am surely open to reason in
> reconsidering the issue.
>
> First, like every supreme court justice nominee I have ever heard,
> I understand the great value of "stare decicis", "let what is decided
> stand".
> Zamenhof laid down the unchangeable Fundamento to avoid the chaos
> of endless amendments by creative conlangers.
> Still which "decisis" are the ones that must "stare"?
>
> From 1955, TLI loglan had no kind of "h" or "x" until 1981,
> when the former was added as a regular consonant phoneme,
> and the latter was its special-case colleague.
> This is still true of TLI Loglan.
> By 1989, LLG loglan/lojban arose with a regular consonant "x" and a
> special " ' ".
>
> In CLL1, the pronunciation is canonical, even if inexact,
> but for the orthography there is a standard form,
> as well as two alternatives that seem to be accepted (Cyrillic and
> Tengwar),
> plus the International Phonetic Alphabet, IPA, used as the standard by
> which you define everything else.
> That is four orthographies.
>
> In the usage of other lojbanists I see experiments in orthography,
> e.g. the grave accents placed on accented vowels,
> or the underdots or over-breves placed on semivowels, or even a few peopl=
e
> using h.
> I think my usage is not far from the mainstream,
> and I coexist happily with those who write differently.
>
> My actual extremest position is to use IPA in a broad transcription when
> your fonts support it,
> but to do CLL with h when ASCII-only is required.
> The IPA is a very widely accepted international standard.
> An IPA dress for lojban does not look that strange or different; see this
> example.
>
>
> <https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QhCJoJuyYo4/WU2TSwKPGII/AAAAAAAAAK0/F=
GRJOHGog04BlOq-NFyVj9__miCOT0E_gCLcBGAs/s1600/ipa-example.png>
>
> Now, which spelling is better and why?
>
> In CLL1 3.3 the apostrophe, period, and comma are grouped together as
> characters that divide syllables,
> but the period and comma are silent ways of separating words or syllables=
,
> while the apostrophe is an audible way to separate syllables
> in precisely the same way that "t" separates the syllables in "mlatu".
> Nothing special there.
>
> In the same section, we read
>     The letter "h" is not used to represent this sound for two reasons:
>     primarily in order to simplify explanations of the morphology,
>     but also because the sound is very common, and the apostrophe
>     is a visually lightweight representation of it.
>
> The sound is not so very common as to justifying it being a special case.
> In 130000 words of lojban I can quickly lay my hands on, the letter
> frequencies are as follows.
> 55421 i
> 46986 a
> 43758 u
> 38175 o
> 36048 l
> 27341 e
> 26722 n
> 21790 h/'
> 20522 c
> 17803 s
> 16437 r
> 14279 m
> 13755 t
> 13551 k
> 10828 d
>  9181 b
>  8832 p
>  7037 j
>  5199 g
>  5017 f
>  4713 y
>  4250 z
>  4130 v
>  3530 x
> The h trails behind all the basic vowels and behind the consonants l and
> n, too, in frequency of use.
>
> Even the measured time it takes to pronounce h, 77-109 msec for me,
> similar in published results for other languages, is not like quicksilver=
.
> In this respect, h is one of the faster fricatives, but in the middle of
> the pack for vowels, stops, and liquids.
> So, why does it need a "lightweight" graphical representation?
>
> What about the argument that spelling with apostrophe instead of h
> simplifies explanations of morphology?
> Except for "e" and "o" having the same phonology rules,
> every other pair of letters differs in its allowed usages -- they are all
> special cases.
> The h is far more constrained than the other consonants in its usage,
> but it appears in every type of word except the gismu.
>
> I think the principal rule that makes h seem special is the constraint
> that brivla have a consonant pair in the first five letters of the word,
> after excluding h and y.
> Still, if in this respect h is not a real consonant and y is not a real
> vowel,
> then why is y allowed in the alphabet, but h not?
>
> In terms of practical convenience, it is nice to be able to search in an
> editor for whole words
> and have the editor software agree with you about what characters occur i=
n
> words.
> Typing /[a-z]+/ is much nicer than /[a-z',]+/.
> And who wants to have to hack emacs syntax tables to search for words?
>
> So, after I come to the conclusion that h/' ought to be in the alphabet a=
s
> much as y or any consonant,
> I think about how best to represent it.
> The answer to that depends on past usage in other languages and on our
> desire to take advantage of
> habit and familiarity to assist those learning lojban.
> All the languages with latin alphabets that I know of that use the h soun=
d
> also use the h grapheme to represent it.
> French lacks the sound so it uses the letter as a separator.
> Spanish has only x which is written j.
> Ancient Greek used to have a rough breathing sound represented by
> a left-side arc or the left half of capital HTA,
>   while the apostrophe-looking mark represented the lack of an h at the
> start of a word.
> Modern Greek has no h sound, just a x.
>
> The use of "h" for the unvoiced glottal fricative seems like a slam dunk
> choice to me.
>
> mihe la bremenli
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

--=20
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>I&#39;ve been=
 away from lojban from quite some time but I&#39;m still following the lang=
uage development. <br>For what is worth, I believe using &#39; rather than =
h has proven itself not to bring any advantage. <br></div><div>The reasons =
brought up in CLL don&#39;t really stand, imho.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t see how e=
xplaining morphology is any simpler or what harms causes &#39;h&#39; being =
&quot;heavier&quot; than &#39;.<br></div>As you rightly pointed out, it mak=
es writing program that parse lojban text (slightly) more complex that it s=
hould be.<br>Also on any computer system we *have* to use h in identifiers =
as the single quote has a special meaninge (e.g. jbofihe).<br>Also, at leas=
t to me, the quote visually breaks the continuity of the text and it requir=
es much more focus and attention to read.<br><br></div></div>By the way, It=
alian (my mother tongue) has no /h/ sound and this makes difficult for me t=
o correctly pronounce &#39; . The letter &#39;h&#39; has no phonological va=
lue (is never pronounced) but it&#39;s used sa a mark to distinguinsh (in w=
riting) words with the same sound:<br><br></div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 hanno -&gt; th=
ey have<br></div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 anno -&gt; year<br><br></div>or change the pr=
onunciation of c and g before i and e:<br><br></div><div>=C2=A0 CIao=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <big><span title=3D"Representation in the International =
Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class=3D"gmail-IPA"><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedi=
a.org/wiki/Voiceless_palato-alveolar_affricate" title=3D"Voiceless palato-a=
lveolar affricate">t=CA=83</a></span></big></div><div>=C2=A0 CHIave <big><s=
pan title=3D"Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" c=
lass=3D"gmail-IPA"><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_velar=
_stop" title=3D"Voiceless velar stop">k</a></span></big></div><div><br></di=
v>=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br></div>=C2=A0 GIoco=C2=A0 <big><span title=3D"Representat=
ion in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class=3D"gmail-IPA"><a hr=
ef=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_palato-alveolar_affricate" title=
=3D"Voiced palato-alveolar affricate">d=CA=92</a></span></big></div>=C2=A0 =
GHIro=C2=A0 <big><span title=3D"Representation in the International Phoneti=
c Alphabet (IPA)" class=3D"gmail-IPA"><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/w=
iki/Voiced_velar_stop" title=3D"Voiced velar stop">=C9=A1</a></span></big><=
div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><br><br>That said, I think that=
 slipping toward h and leaving &#39; as an historical feature would only be=
 beneficial for the language.<br><br></div><div>muho mihe la remod.<br></di=
v><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div=
 class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 =
at 12:34 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vpbroman@gmail.com" t=
arget=3D"_blank">vpbroman@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><p class=3D"m_-4146451329771522225separat=
or" style=3D"text-align:center;clear:both"><br></p>I was questioned on my u=
sually using &quot;h&quot; instead of &quot; &#39; &quot; in lojban,<br>so =
I would like to explain my reasoning and usage preference,<br>and I invite =
constructive criticism, since I am surely open to reason in reconsidering t=
he issue.<br><br>First, like every supreme court justice nominee I have eve=
r heard,<br>I understand the great value of &quot;stare decicis&quot;, &quo=
t;let what is decided stand&quot;.<br>Zamenhof laid down the unchangeable F=
undamento to avoid the chaos<br>of endless amendments by creative conlanger=
s.<br>Still which &quot;decisis&quot; are the ones that must &quot;stare&qu=
ot;?<br><br>From 1955, TLI loglan had no kind of &quot;h&quot; or &quot;x&q=
uot; until 1981,<br>when the former was added as a regular consonant phonem=
e,<br>and the latter was its special-case colleague.<br>This is still true =
of TLI Loglan.<br>By 1989, LLG loglan/lojban arose with a regular consonant=
 &quot;x&quot; and a special &quot; &#39; &quot;.<br><br>In CLL1, the pronu=
nciation is canonical, even if inexact,<br>but for the orthography there is=
 a standard form,<br>as well as two alternatives that seem to be accepted (=
Cyrillic and Tengwar),<br>plus the International Phonetic Alphabet, IPA, us=
ed as the standard by which you define everything else.<br>That is four ort=
hographies.<br><br>In the usage of other lojbanists I see experiments in or=
thography,<br>e.g. the grave accents placed on accented vowels,<br>or the u=
nderdots or over-breves placed on semivowels, or even a few people using h.=
<br>I think my usage is not far from the mainstream,<br>and I coexist happi=
ly with those who write differently.<br><br>My actual extremest position is=
 to use IPA in a broad transcription when your fonts support it,<br>but to =
do CLL with h when ASCII-only is required.<br>The IPA is a very widely acce=
pted international standard.<br>An IPA dress for lojban does not look that =
strange or different; see this example.<br><p class=3D"m_-41464513297715222=
25separator" style=3D"text-align:center;clear:both"><a href=3D"https://lh3.=
googleusercontent.com/-QhCJoJuyYo4/WU2TSwKPGII/AAAAAAAAAK0/FGRJOHGog04BlOq-=
NFyVj9__miCOT0E_gCLcBGAs/s1600/ipa-example.png" style=3D"margin-left:1em;ma=
rgin-right:1em" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"https://lh3.googleusercontent=
.com/-QhCJoJuyYo4/WU2TSwKPGII/AAAAAAAAAK0/FGRJOHGog04BlOq-NFyVj9__miCOT0E_g=
CLcBGAs/s400/ipa-example.png" width=3D"400" height=3D"56" border=3D"0"></a>=
</p><br>Now, which spelling is better and why?<br><br>In CLL1 3.3 the apost=
rophe, period, and comma are grouped together as characters that divide syl=
lables,<br>but the period and comma are silent ways of separating words or =
syllables,<br>while the apostrophe is an audible way to separate syllables<=
br>in precisely the same way that &quot;t&quot; separates the syllables in =
&quot;mlatu&quot;.<br>Nothing special there.<br><br>In the same section, we=
 read<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The letter &quot;h&quot; is not used to represe=
nt this sound for two reasons:<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 primarily in order to =
simplify explanations of the morphology,<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 but also bec=
ause the sound is very common, and the apostrophe<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is =
a visually lightweight representation of it.<br><br>The sound is not so ver=
y common as to justifying it being a special case.<br>In 130000 words of lo=
jban I can quickly lay my hands on, the letter frequencies are as follows.<=
br>55421 i<br>46986 a<br>43758 u<br>38175 o<br>36048 l<br>27341 e<br>26722 =
n<br>21790 h/&#39;<br>20522 c<br>17803 s<br>16437 r<br>14279 m<br>13755 t<b=
r>13551 k<br>10828 d<br>=C2=A09181 b<br>=C2=A08832 p<br>=C2=A07037 j<br>=C2=
=A05199 g<br>=C2=A05017 f<br>=C2=A04713 y<br>=C2=A04250 z<br>=C2=A04130 v<b=
r>=C2=A03530 x<br>The h trails behind all the basic vowels and behind the c=
onsonants l and n, too, in frequency of use.<br><br>Even the measured time =
it takes to pronounce h, 77-109 msec for me,<br>similar in published result=
s for other languages, is not like quicksilver.<br>In this respect, h is on=
e of the faster fricatives, but in the middle of the pack for vowels, stops=
, and liquids.<br>So, why does it need a &quot;lightweight&quot; graphical =
representation?<br><br>What about the argument that spelling with apostroph=
e instead of h<br>simplifies explanations of morphology?<br>Except for &quo=
t;e&quot; and &quot;o&quot; having the same phonology rules,<br>every other=
 pair of letters differs in its allowed usages -- they are all special case=
s.<br>The h is far more constrained than the other consonants in its usage,=
<br>but it appears in every type of word except the gismu.<br><br>I think t=
he principal rule that makes h seem special is the constraint<br>that brivl=
a have a consonant pair in the first five letters of the word, after exclud=
ing h and y.<br>Still, if in this respect h is not a real consonant and y i=
s not a real vowel,<br>then why is y allowed in the alphabet, but h not?<br=
><br>In terms of practical convenience, it is nice to be able to search in =
an editor for whole words<br>and have the editor software agree with you ab=
out what characters occur in words.<br>Typing /[a-z]+/ is much nicer than /=
[a-z&#39;,]+/.<br>And who wants to have to hack emacs syntax tables to sear=
ch for words?<br><br>So, after I come to the conclusion that h/&#39; ought =
to be in the alphabet as much as y or any consonant,<br>I think about how b=
est to represent it.<br>The answer to that depends on past usage in other l=
anguages and on our desire to take advantage of<br>habit and familiarity to=
 assist those learning lojban.<br>All the languages with latin alphabets th=
at I know of that use the h sound<br>also use the h grapheme to represent i=
t.<br>French lacks the sound so it uses the letter as a separator.<br>Spani=
sh has only x which is written j.<br>Ancient Greek used to have a rough bre=
athing sound represented by<br>a left-side arc or the left half of capital =
HTA,<br>=C2=A0 while the apostrophe-looking mark represented the lack of an=
 h at the start of a word.<br>Modern Greek has no h sound, just a x.<br><br=
>The use of &quot;h&quot; for the unvoiced glottal fricative seems like a s=
lam dunk choice to me.<br><br>mihe la bremenli<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font =
color=3D"#888888"><br><br></font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font =
color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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