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From: uakci <ciuak.prog@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 13:53:04 +0200
Message-ID: <CACtk4+AgyWZyopdG_jeOeOSwtpXJ8XayzYuQO47JdZGdwkb5xA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Apologia, using h instead of yhy
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also, my 3 cents:
<'> can be used for any other unused fricative sound (as described in the
CLL), so it needn't be pronounced /h/ all the time, especially when one's
native language doesn't have /h/. then, if we picked <h> to symbolize some
non-/h/ sound, would it make sense anymore? (I'm not sure about that, but I
guess that the founding fathers of the CLL were sure that using the
grapheme <h> would mess things up.)


=E2=80=94mi'e la rupnu be li pi no ci be'o se ju la uakci

2017-06-24 11:18 GMT+02:00 Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>:

> I've been away from lojban from quite some time but I'm still following
> the language development.
> For what is worth, I believe using ' rather than h has proven itself not
> to bring any advantage.
> The reasons brought up in CLL don't really stand, imho.  I don't see how
> explaining morphology is any simpler or what harms causes 'h' being
> "heavier" than '.
> As you rightly pointed out, it makes writing program that parse lojban
> text (slightly) more complex that it should be.
> Also on any computer system we *have* to use h in identifiers as the
> single quote has a special meaninge (e.g. jbofihe).
> Also, at least to me, the quote visually breaks the continuity of the tex=
t
> and it requires much more focus and attention to read.
>
> By the way, Italian (my mother tongue) has no /h/ sound and this makes
> difficult for me to correctly pronounce ' . The letter 'h' has no
> phonological value (is never pronounced) but it's used sa a mark to
> distinguinsh (in writing) words with the same sound:
>
>    hanno -> they have
>    anno -> year
>
> or change the pronunciation of c and g before i and e:
>
>   CIao     t=CA=83
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palato-alveolar_affricate>
>   CHIave k <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_velar_stop>
>
>
>   GIoco  d=CA=92
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_palato-alveolar_affricate>
>   GHIro  =C9=A1 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_velar_stop>
>
>
> That said, I think that slipping toward h and leaving ' as an historical
> feature would only be beneficial for the language.
>
> muho mihe la remod.
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 12:34 AM, <vpbroman@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I was questioned on my usually using "h" instead of " ' " in lojban,
>> so I would like to explain my reasoning and usage preference,
>> and I invite constructive criticism, since I am surely open to reason in
>> reconsidering the issue.
>>
>> First, like every supreme court justice nominee I have ever heard,
>> I understand the great value of "stare decicis", "let what is decided
>> stand".
>> Zamenhof laid down the unchangeable Fundamento to avoid the chaos
>> of endless amendments by creative conlangers.
>> Still which "decisis" are the ones that must "stare"?
>>
>> From 1955, TLI loglan had no kind of "h" or "x" until 1981,
>> when the former was added as a regular consonant phoneme,
>> and the latter was its special-case colleague.
>> This is still true of TLI Loglan.
>> By 1989, LLG loglan/lojban arose with a regular consonant "x" and a
>> special " ' ".
>>
>> In CLL1, the pronunciation is canonical, even if inexact,
>> but for the orthography there is a standard form,
>> as well as two alternatives that seem to be accepted (Cyrillic and
>> Tengwar),
>> plus the International Phonetic Alphabet, IPA, used as the standard by
>> which you define everything else.
>> That is four orthographies.
>>
>> In the usage of other lojbanists I see experiments in orthography,
>> e.g. the grave accents placed on accented vowels,
>> or the underdots or over-breves placed on semivowels, or even a few
>> people using h.
>> I think my usage is not far from the mainstream,
>> and I coexist happily with those who write differently.
>>
>> My actual extremest position is to use IPA in a broad transcription when
>> your fonts support it,
>> but to do CLL with h when ASCII-only is required.
>> The IPA is a very widely accepted international standard.
>> An IPA dress for lojban does not look that strange or different; see thi=
s
>> example.
>>
>>
>> <https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QhCJoJuyYo4/WU2TSwKPGII/AAAAAAAAAK0/=
FGRJOHGog04BlOq-NFyVj9__miCOT0E_gCLcBGAs/s1600/ipa-example.png>
>>
>> Now, which spelling is better and why?
>>
>> In CLL1 3.3 the apostrophe, period, and comma are grouped together as
>> characters that divide syllables,
>> but the period and comma are silent ways of separating words or syllable=
s,
>> while the apostrophe is an audible way to separate syllables
>> in precisely the same way that "t" separates the syllables in "mlatu".
>> Nothing special there.
>>
>> In the same section, we read
>>     The letter "h" is not used to represent this sound for two reasons:
>>     primarily in order to simplify explanations of the morphology,
>>     but also because the sound is very common, and the apostrophe
>>     is a visually lightweight representation of it.
>>
>> The sound is not so very common as to justifying it being a special case=
.
>> In 130000 words of lojban I can quickly lay my hands on, the letter
>> frequencies are as follows.
>> 55421 i
>> 46986 a
>> 43758 u
>> 38175 o
>> 36048 l
>> 27341 e
>> 26722 n
>> 21790 h/'
>> 20522 c
>> 17803 s
>> 16437 r
>> 14279 m
>> 13755 t
>> 13551 k
>> 10828 d
>>  9181 b
>>  8832 p
>>  7037 j
>>  5199 g
>>  5017 f
>>  4713 y
>>  4250 z
>>  4130 v
>>  3530 x
>> The h trails behind all the basic vowels and behind the consonants l and
>> n, too, in frequency of use.
>>
>> Even the measured time it takes to pronounce h, 77-109 msec for me,
>> similar in published results for other languages, is not like quicksilve=
r.
>> In this respect, h is one of the faster fricatives, but in the middle of
>> the pack for vowels, stops, and liquids.
>> So, why does it need a "lightweight" graphical representation?
>>
>> What about the argument that spelling with apostrophe instead of h
>> simplifies explanations of morphology?
>> Except for "e" and "o" having the same phonology rules,
>> every other pair of letters differs in its allowed usages -- they are al=
l
>> special cases.
>> The h is far more constrained than the other consonants in its usage,
>> but it appears in every type of word except the gismu.
>>
>> I think the principal rule that makes h seem special is the constraint
>> that brivla have a consonant pair in the first five letters of the word,
>> after excluding h and y.
>> Still, if in this respect h is not a real consonant and y is not a real
>> vowel,
>> then why is y allowed in the alphabet, but h not?
>>
>> In terms of practical convenience, it is nice to be able to search in an
>> editor for whole words
>> and have the editor software agree with you about what characters occur
>> in words.
>> Typing /[a-z]+/ is much nicer than /[a-z',]+/.
>> And who wants to have to hack emacs syntax tables to search for words?
>>
>> So, after I come to the conclusion that h/' ought to be in the alphabet
>> as much as y or any consonant,
>> I think about how best to represent it.
>> The answer to that depends on past usage in other languages and on our
>> desire to take advantage of
>> habit and familiarity to assist those learning lojban.
>> All the languages with latin alphabets that I know of that use the h sou=
nd
>> also use the h grapheme to represent it.
>> French lacks the sound so it uses the letter as a separator.
>> Spanish has only x which is written j.
>> Ancient Greek used to have a rough breathing sound represented by
>> a left-side arc or the left half of capital HTA,
>>   while the apostrophe-looking mark represented the lack of an h at the
>> start of a word.
>> Modern Greek has no h sound, just a x.
>>
>> The use of "h" for the unvoiced glottal fricative seems like a slam dunk
>> choice to me.
>>
>> mihe la bremenli
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s
>> "lojban" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a=
n
>> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>also, my 3 cents:<br></div>&lt;&#39;&gt; can be =
used for any other unused fricative sound (as described in the CLL), so it =
needn&#39;t be pronounced /h/ all the time, especially when one&#39;s nativ=
e language doesn&#39;t have /h/. then, if we picked &lt;h&gt; to symbolize =
some non-/h/ sound, would it make sense anymore? (I&#39;m not sure about th=
at, but I guess that the founding fathers of the CLL were sure that using t=
he grapheme &lt;h&gt; would mess things up.)<br><br><br></div>=E2=80=94mi&#=
39;e la rupnu be li pi no ci be&#39;o se ju la uakci<br></div><div class=3D=
"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">2017-06-24 11:18 GMT+02:00 Rem=
o Dentato <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rdentato@gmail.com" targe=
t=3D"_blank">rdentato@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>I&#39;=
ve been away from lojban from quite some time but I&#39;m still following t=
he language development. <br>For what is worth, I believe using &#39; rathe=
r than h has proven itself not to bring any advantage. <br></div><div>The r=
easons brought up in CLL don&#39;t really stand, imho.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t se=
e how explaining morphology is any simpler or what harms causes &#39;h&#39;=
 being &quot;heavier&quot; than &#39;.<br></div>As you rightly pointed out,=
 it makes writing program that parse lojban text (slightly) more complex th=
at it should be.<br>Also on any computer system we *have* to use h in ident=
ifiers as the single quote has a special meaninge (e.g. jbofihe).<br>Also, =
at least to me, the quote visually breaks the continuity of the text and it=
 requires much more focus and attention to read.<br><br></div></div>By the =
way, Italian (my mother tongue) has no /h/ sound and this makes difficult f=
or me to correctly pronounce &#39; . The letter &#39;h&#39; has no phonolog=
ical value (is never pronounced) but it&#39;s used sa a mark to distinguins=
h (in writing) words with the same sound:<br><br></div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 hanno -=
&gt; they have<br></div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 anno -&gt; year<br><br></div>or change=
 the pronunciation of c and g before i and e:<br><br></div><div>=C2=A0 CIao=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <big><span title=3D"Representation in the Internat=
ional Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class=3D"m_-6352890742363535001gmail-IPA"><a=
 href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palato-alveolar_affricate"=
 title=3D"Voiceless palato-alveolar affricate" target=3D"_blank">t=CA=83</a=
></span></big></div><div>=C2=A0 CHIave <big><span title=3D"Representation i=
n the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class=3D"m_-635289074236353500=
1gmail-IPA"><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_velar_stop" =
title=3D"Voiceless velar stop" target=3D"_blank">k</a></span></big></div><d=
iv><br></div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br></div>=C2=A0 GIoco=C2=A0 <big><span title=3D"=
Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class=3D"m_-63=
52890742363535001gmail-IPA"><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced=
_palato-alveolar_affricate" title=3D"Voiced palato-alveolar affricate" targ=
et=3D"_blank">d=CA=92</a></span></big></div>=C2=A0 GHIro=C2=A0 <big><span t=
itle=3D"Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class=
=3D"m_-6352890742363535001gmail-IPA"><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wi=
ki/Voiced_velar_stop" title=3D"Voiced velar stop" target=3D"_blank">=C9=A1<=
/a></span></big><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><br><br>That s=
aid, I think that slipping toward h and leaving &#39; as an historical feat=
ure would only be beneficial for the language.<br><br></div><div>muho mihe =
la remod.<br></div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div=
></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_ex=
tra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 12:34 AM,  <spa=
n dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vpbroman@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">v=
pbroman@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><=
div dir=3D"ltr"><p class=3D"m_-6352890742363535001m_-4146451329771522225sep=
arator" style=3D"text-align:center;clear:both"><br></p>I was questioned on =
my usually using &quot;h&quot; instead of &quot; &#39; &quot; in lojban,<br=
>so I would like to explain my reasoning and usage preference,<br>and I inv=
ite constructive criticism, since I am surely open to reason in reconsideri=
ng the issue.<br><br>First, like every supreme court justice nominee I have=
 ever heard,<br>I understand the great value of &quot;stare decicis&quot;, =
&quot;let what is decided stand&quot;.<br>Zamenhof laid down the unchangeab=
le Fundamento to avoid the chaos<br>of endless amendments by creative conla=
ngers.<br>Still which &quot;decisis&quot; are the ones that must &quot;star=
e&quot;?<br><br>From 1955, TLI loglan had no kind of &quot;h&quot; or &quot=
;x&quot; until 1981,<br>when the former was added as a regular consonant ph=
oneme,<br>and the latter was its special-case colleague.<br>This is still t=
rue of TLI Loglan.<br>By 1989, LLG loglan/lojban arose with a regular conso=
nant &quot;x&quot; and a special &quot; &#39; &quot;.<br><br>In CLL1, the p=
ronunciation is canonical, even if inexact,<br>but for the orthography ther=
e is a standard form,<br>as well as two alternatives that seem to be accept=
ed (Cyrillic and Tengwar),<br>plus the International Phonetic Alphabet, IPA=
, used as the standard by which you define everything else.<br>That is four=
 orthographies.<br><br>In the usage of other lojbanists I see experiments i=
n orthography,<br>e.g. the grave accents placed on accented vowels,<br>or t=
he underdots or over-breves placed on semivowels, or even a few people usin=
g h.<br>I think my usage is not far from the mainstream,<br>and I coexist h=
appily with those who write differently.<br><br>My actual extremest positio=
n is to use IPA in a broad transcription when your fonts support it,<br>but=
 to do CLL with h when ASCII-only is required.<br>The IPA is a very widely =
accepted international standard.<br>An IPA dress for lojban does not look t=
hat strange or different; see this example.<br><p class=3D"m_-6352890742363=
535001m_-4146451329771522225separator" style=3D"text-align:center;clear:bot=
h"><a href=3D"https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QhCJoJuyYo4/WU2TSwKPGII/AA=
AAAAAAAK0/FGRJOHGog04BlOq-NFyVj9__miCOT0E_gCLcBGAs/s1600/ipa-example.png" s=
tyle=3D"margin-left:1em;margin-right:1em" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"htt=
ps://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QhCJoJuyYo4/WU2TSwKPGII/AAAAAAAAAK0/FGRJOHG=
og04BlOq-NFyVj9__miCOT0E_gCLcBGAs/s400/ipa-example.png" border=3D"0" height=
=3D"56" width=3D"400"></a></p><br>Now, which spelling is better and why?<br=
><br>In CLL1 3.3 the apostrophe, period, and comma are grouped together as =
characters that divide syllables,<br>but the period and comma are silent wa=
ys of separating words or syllables,<br>while the apostrophe is an audible =
way to separate syllables<br>in precisely the same way that &quot;t&quot; s=
eparates the syllables in &quot;mlatu&quot;.<br>Nothing special there.<br><=
br>In the same section, we read<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The letter &quot;h&qu=
ot; is not used to represent this sound for two reasons:<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 primarily in order to simplify explanations of the morphology,<br>=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 but also because the sound is very common, and the apostrop=
he<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is a visually lightweight representation of it.<br=
><br>The sound is not so very common as to justifying it being a special ca=
se.<br>In 130000 words of lojban I can quickly lay my hands on, the letter =
frequencies are as follows.<br>55421 i<br>46986 a<br>43758 u<br>38175 o<br>=
36048 l<br>27341 e<br>26722 n<br>21790 h/&#39;<br>20522 c<br>17803 s<br>164=
37 r<br>14279 m<br>13755 t<br>13551 k<br>10828 d<br>=C2=A09181 b<br>=C2=A08=
832 p<br>=C2=A07037 j<br>=C2=A05199 g<br>=C2=A05017 f<br>=C2=A04713 y<br>=
=C2=A04250 z<br>=C2=A04130 v<br>=C2=A03530 x<br>The h trails behind all the=
 basic vowels and behind the consonants l and n, too, in frequency of use.<=
br><br>Even the measured time it takes to pronounce h, 77-109 msec for me,<=
br>similar in published results for other languages, is not like quicksilve=
r.<br>In this respect, h is one of the faster fricatives, but in the middle=
 of the pack for vowels, stops, and liquids.<br>So, why does it need a &quo=
t;lightweight&quot; graphical representation?<br><br>What about the argumen=
t that spelling with apostrophe instead of h<br>simplifies explanations of =
morphology?<br>Except for &quot;e&quot; and &quot;o&quot; having the same p=
honology rules,<br>every other pair of letters differs in its allowed usage=
s -- they are all special cases.<br>The h is far more constrained than the =
other consonants in its usage,<br>but it appears in every type of word exce=
pt the gismu.<br><br>I think the principal rule that makes h seem special i=
s the constraint<br>that brivla have a consonant pair in the first five let=
ters of the word, after excluding h and y.<br>Still, if in this respect h i=
s not a real consonant and y is not a real vowel,<br>then why is y allowed =
in the alphabet, but h not?<br><br>In terms of practical convenience, it is=
 nice to be able to search in an editor for whole words<br>and have the edi=
tor software agree with you about what characters occur in words.<br>Typing=
 /[a-z]+/ is much nicer than /[a-z&#39;,]+/.<br>And who wants to have to ha=
ck emacs syntax tables to search for words?<br><br>So, after I come to the =
conclusion that h/&#39; ought to be in the alphabet as much as y or any con=
sonant,<br>I think about how best to represent it.<br>The answer to that de=
pends on past usage in other languages and on our desire to take advantage =
of<br>habit and familiarity to assist those learning lojban.<br>All the lan=
guages with latin alphabets that I know of that use the h sound<br>also use=
 the h grapheme to represent it.<br>French lacks the sound so it uses the l=
etter as a separator.<br>Spanish has only x which is written j.<br>Ancient =
Greek used to have a rough breathing sound represented by<br>a left-side ar=
c or the left half of capital HTA,<br>=C2=A0 while the apostrophe-looking m=
ark represented the lack of an h at the start of a word.<br>Modern Greek ha=
s no h sound, just a x.<br><br>The use of &quot;h&quot; for the unvoiced gl=
ottal fricative seems like a slam dunk choice to me.<br><br>mihe la bremenl=
i<span class=3D"m_-6352890742363535001HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br><=
br></font></span></div><span class=3D"m_-6352890742363535001HOEnZb"><font c=
olor=3D"#888888">

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</font></span></blockquote></div><br></div>

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