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From: Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 17:55:50 +0200
Message-ID: <CAAQ0imP6AfBTLmLpFn+u_aLTnZ=ko5oOSHyonO57HWEL_nPKSA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Apologia, using h instead of yhy
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I agree that the initial idea was for ' to be replaceable by other unvoiced
fricative sound. Quoting literally CLL 3:

-----

The apostrophe is included in Lojban only to enable a smooth transition
between vowels, while joining the vowels within a single word. In fact, one
way to think of the apostrophe is as representing an unvoiced vowel glide.

As a permitted variant, any unvoiced fricative other than those already
used in Lojban may be used to render the apostrophe: IPA [=CE=B8] is one
possibility. The convenience of the listener should be regarded as
paramount in deciding to use a substitute for [h].

-----

I wonder, however, how many lojbanists nowadays would recognize a '
pronounced as =CE=B8 rather than h . If, as CLL says, the convenience of th=
e
listner should be the first priority, then having ' fixed as  h  might be a
good solution.


On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 1:53 PM, uakci <ciuak.prog@gmail.com> wrote:

> also, my 3 cents:
> <'> can be used for any other unused fricative sound (as described in the
> CLL), so it needn't be pronounced /h/ all the time, especially when one's
> native language doesn't have /h/. then, if we picked <h> to symbolize som=
e
> non-/h/ sound, would it make sense anymore? (I'm not sure about that, but=
 I
> guess that the founding fathers of the CLL were sure that using the
> grapheme <h> would mess things up.)
>
>
> =E2=80=94mi'e la rupnu be li pi no ci be'o se ju la uakci
>
> 2017-06-24 11:18 GMT+02:00 Remo Dentato <rdentato@gmail.com>:
>
>> I've been away from lojban from quite some time but I'm still following
>> the language development.
>> For what is worth, I believe using ' rather than h has proven itself not
>> to bring any advantage.
>> The reasons brought up in CLL don't really stand, imho.  I don't see how
>> explaining morphology is any simpler or what harms causes 'h' being
>> "heavier" than '.
>> As you rightly pointed out, it makes writing program that parse lojban
>> text (slightly) more complex that it should be.
>> Also on any computer system we *have* to use h in identifiers as the
>> single quote has a special meaninge (e.g. jbofihe).
>> Also, at least to me, the quote visually breaks the continuity of the
>> text and it requires much more focus and attention to read.
>>
>> By the way, Italian (my mother tongue) has no /h/ sound and this makes
>> difficult for me to correctly pronounce ' . The letter 'h' has no
>> phonological value (is never pronounced) but it's used sa a mark to
>> distinguinsh (in writing) words with the same sound:
>>
>>    hanno -> they have
>>    anno -> year
>>
>> or change the pronunciation of c and g before i and e:
>>
>>   CIao     t=CA=83
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palato-alveolar_affricate>
>>   CHIave k <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_velar_stop>
>>
>>
>>   GIoco  d=CA=92
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_palato-alveolar_affricate>
>>   GHIro  =C9=A1 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_velar_stop>
>>
>>
>> That said, I think that slipping toward h and leaving ' as an historical
>> feature would only be beneficial for the language.
>>
>> muho mihe la remod.
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 12:34 AM, <vpbroman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I was questioned on my usually using "h" instead of " ' " in lojban,
>>> so I would like to explain my reasoning and usage preference,
>>> and I invite constructive criticism, since I am surely open to reason i=
n
>>> reconsidering the issue.
>>>
>>> First, like every supreme court justice nominee I have ever heard,
>>> I understand the great value of "stare decicis", "let what is decided
>>> stand".
>>> Zamenhof laid down the unchangeable Fundamento to avoid the chaos
>>> of endless amendments by creative conlangers.
>>> Still which "decisis" are the ones that must "stare"?
>>>
>>> From 1955, TLI loglan had no kind of "h" or "x" until 1981,
>>> when the former was added as a regular consonant phoneme,
>>> and the latter was its special-case colleague.
>>> This is still true of TLI Loglan.
>>> By 1989, LLG loglan/lojban arose with a regular consonant "x" and a
>>> special " ' ".
>>>
>>> In CLL1, the pronunciation is canonical, even if inexact,
>>> but for the orthography there is a standard form,
>>> as well as two alternatives that seem to be accepted (Cyrillic and
>>> Tengwar),
>>> plus the International Phonetic Alphabet, IPA, used as the standard by
>>> which you define everything else.
>>> That is four orthographies.
>>>
>>> In the usage of other lojbanists I see experiments in orthography,
>>> e.g. the grave accents placed on accented vowels,
>>> or the underdots or over-breves placed on semivowels, or even a few
>>> people using h.
>>> I think my usage is not far from the mainstream,
>>> and I coexist happily with those who write differently.
>>>
>>> My actual extremest position is to use IPA in a broad transcription whe=
n
>>> your fonts support it,
>>> but to do CLL with h when ASCII-only is required.
>>> The IPA is a very widely accepted international standard.
>>> An IPA dress for lojban does not look that strange or different; see
>>> this example.
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QhCJoJuyYo4/WU2TSwKPGII/AAAAAAAAAK0=
/FGRJOHGog04BlOq-NFyVj9__miCOT0E_gCLcBGAs/s1600/ipa-example.png>
>>>
>>> Now, which spelling is better and why?
>>>
>>> In CLL1 3.3 the apostrophe, period, and comma are grouped together as
>>> characters that divide syllables,
>>> but the period and comma are silent ways of separating words or
>>> syllables,
>>> while the apostrophe is an audible way to separate syllables
>>> in precisely the same way that "t" separates the syllables in "mlatu".
>>> Nothing special there.
>>>
>>> In the same section, we read
>>>     The letter "h" is not used to represent this sound for two reasons:
>>>     primarily in order to simplify explanations of the morphology,
>>>     but also because the sound is very common, and the apostrophe
>>>     is a visually lightweight representation of it.
>>>
>>> The sound is not so very common as to justifying it being a special cas=
e.
>>> In 130000 words of lojban I can quickly lay my hands on, the letter
>>> frequencies are as follows.
>>> 55421 i
>>> 46986 a
>>> 43758 u
>>> 38175 o
>>> 36048 l
>>> 27341 e
>>> 26722 n
>>> 21790 h/'
>>> 20522 c
>>> 17803 s
>>> 16437 r
>>> 14279 m
>>> 13755 t
>>> 13551 k
>>> 10828 d
>>>  9181 b
>>>  8832 p
>>>  7037 j
>>>  5199 g
>>>  5017 f
>>>  4713 y
>>>  4250 z
>>>  4130 v
>>>  3530 x
>>> The h trails behind all the basic vowels and behind the consonants l an=
d
>>> n, too, in frequency of use.
>>>
>>> Even the measured time it takes to pronounce h, 77-109 msec for me,
>>> similar in published results for other languages, is not like
>>> quicksilver.
>>> In this respect, h is one of the faster fricatives, but in the middle o=
f
>>> the pack for vowels, stops, and liquids.
>>> So, why does it need a "lightweight" graphical representation?
>>>
>>> What about the argument that spelling with apostrophe instead of h
>>> simplifies explanations of morphology?
>>> Except for "e" and "o" having the same phonology rules,
>>> every other pair of letters differs in its allowed usages -- they are
>>> all special cases.
>>> The h is far more constrained than the other consonants in its usage,
>>> but it appears in every type of word except the gismu.
>>>
>>> I think the principal rule that makes h seem special is the constraint
>>> that brivla have a consonant pair in the first five letters of the word=
,
>>> after excluding h and y.
>>> Still, if in this respect h is not a real consonant and y is not a real
>>> vowel,
>>> then why is y allowed in the alphabet, but h not?
>>>
>>> In terms of practical convenience, it is nice to be able to search in a=
n
>>> editor for whole words
>>> and have the editor software agree with you about what characters occur
>>> in words.
>>> Typing /[a-z]+/ is much nicer than /[a-z',]+/.
>>> And who wants to have to hack emacs syntax tables to search for words?
>>>
>>> So, after I come to the conclusion that h/' ought to be in the alphabet
>>> as much as y or any consonant,
>>> I think about how best to represent it.
>>> The answer to that depends on past usage in other languages and on our
>>> desire to take advantage of
>>> habit and familiarity to assist those learning lojban.
>>> All the languages with latin alphabets that I know of that use the h
>>> sound
>>> also use the h grapheme to represent it.
>>> French lacks the sound so it uses the letter as a separator.
>>> Spanish has only x which is written j.
>>> Ancient Greek used to have a rough breathing sound represented by
>>> a left-side arc or the left half of capital HTA,
>>>   while the apostrophe-looking mark represented the lack of an h at the
>>> start of a word.
>>> Modern Greek has no h sound, just a x.
>>>
>>> The use of "h" for the unvoiced glottal fricative seems like a slam dun=
k
>>> choice to me.
>>>
>>> mihe la bremenli
>>>
>>> --
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>>>
>>
>> --
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s
>> "lojban" group.
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n
>> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
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>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">I agree that the initial idea was for &#39; to be replacea=
ble by other unvoiced fricative sound. Quoting literally CLL 3:<br><p>-----=
<br></p><p>The apostrophe is included in Lojban only to enable a smooth=20
transition between vowels, while joining the vowels within a single=20
word. In fact, one way to think of the apostrophe is as representing an=20
unvoiced vowel glide.<br></p><p>As a permitted variant, any unvoiced fricat=
ive other than those=20
already used in Lojban may be used to render the apostrophe: IPA <span clas=
s=3D"gmail-c3">[=CE=B8]</span> is one possibility. The convenience of the l=
istener should be regarded as paramount in deciding to use a substitute for=
 <span class=3D"gmail-c3">[h]</span>.</p><p>-----</p><p>I wonder, however, =
how many lojbanists nowadays would recognize a &#39; pronounced as <span cl=
ass=3D"gmail-c3">=CE=B8 rather than </span><span class=3D"gmail-c3"><span c=
lass=3D"gmail-c3">h</span> . If, as CLL says, the convenience of the listne=
r should be the first priority, then having &#39; fixed as=C2=A0 </span><sp=
an class=3D"gmail-c3"><span class=3D"gmail-c3">h</span>=C2=A0 might be a go=
od solution.<br></span></p><p><br></p><p><br></p></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Jun 24, 2017 at 1:53 PM, uakc=
i <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ciuak.prog@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">ciuak.prog@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"g=
mail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>also, my 3 cents:<br></div>&lt;&#39;&gt=
; can be used for any other unused fricative sound (as described in the CLL=
), so it needn&#39;t be pronounced /h/ all the time, especially when one=
9;s native language doesn&#39;t have /h/. then, if we picked &lt;h&gt; to s=
ymbolize some non-/h/ sound, would it make sense anymore? (I&#39;m not sure=
 about that, but I guess that the founding fathers of the CLL were sure tha=
t using the grapheme &lt;h&gt; would mess things up.)<br><br><br></div>=E2=
=80=94mi&#39;e la rupnu be li pi no ci be&#39;o se ju la uakci<br></div><di=
v class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_quote">2017-06-24 11:18 GMT+02:00 Remo Dentato <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rdentato@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">rdentato@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><=
div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>I&#39;ve been away from lojban =
from quite some time but I&#39;m still following the language development. =
<br>For what is worth, I believe using &#39; rather than h has proven itsel=
f not to bring any advantage. <br></div><div>The reasons brought up in CLL =
don&#39;t really stand, imho.=C2=A0 I don&#39;t see how explaining morpholo=
gy is any simpler or what harms causes &#39;h&#39; being &quot;heavier&quot=
; than &#39;.<br></div>As you rightly pointed out, it makes writing program=
 that parse lojban text (slightly) more complex that it should be.<br>Also =
on any computer system we *have* to use h in identifiers as the single quot=
e has a special meaninge (e.g. jbofihe).<br>Also, at least to me, the quote=
 visually breaks the continuity of the text and it requires much more focus=
 and attention to read.<br><br></div></div>By the way, Italian (my mother t=
ongue) has no /h/ sound and this makes difficult for me to correctly pronou=
nce &#39; . The letter &#39;h&#39; has no phonological value (is never pron=
ounced) but it&#39;s used sa a mark to distinguinsh (in writing) words with=
 the same sound:<br><br></div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 hanno -&gt; they have<br></div>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 anno -&gt; year<br><br></div>or change the pronunciation of c =
and g before i and e:<br><br></div><div>=C2=A0 CIao=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
 <big><span title=3D"Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet =
(IPA)" class=3D"m_6070446559653051309m_-6352890742363535001gmail-IPA"><a hr=
ef=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palato-alveolar_affricate" ti=
tle=3D"Voiceless palato-alveolar affricate" target=3D"_blank">t=CA=83</a></=
span></big></div><div>=C2=A0 CHIave <big><span title=3D"Representation in t=
he International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class=3D"m_6070446559653051309m_-=
6352890742363535001gmail-IPA"><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voic=
eless_velar_stop" title=3D"Voiceless velar stop" target=3D"_blank">k</a></s=
pan></big></div><div><br></div>=C2=A0=C2=A0 <br></div>=C2=A0 GIoco=C2=A0 <b=
ig><span title=3D"Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IP=
A)" class=3D"m_6070446559653051309m_-6352890742363535001gmail-IPA"><a href=
=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_palato-alveolar_affricate" title=
=3D"Voiced palato-alveolar affricate" target=3D"_blank">d=CA=92</a></span><=
/big></div>=C2=A0 GHIro=C2=A0 <big><span title=3D"Representation in the Int=
ernational Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class=3D"m_6070446559653051309m_-635289=
0742363535001gmail-IPA"><a href=3D"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_vel=
ar_stop" title=3D"Voiced velar stop" target=3D"_blank">=C9=A1</a></span></b=
ig><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><div><br><br>That said, I think =
that slipping toward h and leaving &#39; as an historical feature would onl=
y be beneficial for the language.<br><br></div><div>muho mihe la remod.<br>=
</div><div><br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>=
<div class=3D"m_6070446559653051309HOEnZb"><div class=3D"m_6070446559653051=
309h5"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sat, Ju=
n 24, 2017 at 12:34 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vpbroman@g=
mail.com" target=3D"_blank">vpbroman@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><bl=
ockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><p class=3D"m_6070446559653051=
309m_-6352890742363535001m_-4146451329771522225separator" style=3D"text-ali=
gn:center;clear:both"><br></p>I was questioned on my usually using &quot;h&=
quot; instead of &quot; &#39; &quot; in lojban,<br>so I would like to expla=
in my reasoning and usage preference,<br>and I invite constructive criticis=
m, since I am surely open to reason in reconsidering the issue.<br><br>Firs=
t, like every supreme court justice nominee I have ever heard,<br>I underst=
and the great value of &quot;stare decicis&quot;, &quot;let what is decided=
 stand&quot;.<br>Zamenhof laid down the unchangeable Fundamento to avoid th=
e chaos<br>of endless amendments by creative conlangers.<br>Still which &qu=
ot;decisis&quot; are the ones that must &quot;stare&quot;?<br><br>From 1955=
, TLI loglan had no kind of &quot;h&quot; or &quot;x&quot; until 1981,<br>w=
hen the former was added as a regular consonant phoneme,<br>and the latter =
was its special-case colleague.<br>This is still true of TLI Loglan.<br>By =
1989, LLG loglan/lojban arose with a regular consonant &quot;x&quot; and a =
special &quot; &#39; &quot;.<br><br>In CLL1, the pronunciation is canonical=
, even if inexact,<br>but for the orthography there is a standard form,<br>=
as well as two alternatives that seem to be accepted (Cyrillic and Tengwar)=
,<br>plus the International Phonetic Alphabet, IPA, used as the standard by=
 which you define everything else.<br>That is four orthographies.<br><br>In=
 the usage of other lojbanists I see experiments in orthography,<br>e.g. th=
e grave accents placed on accented vowels,<br>or the underdots or over-brev=
es placed on semivowels, or even a few people using h.<br>I think my usage =
is not far from the mainstream,<br>and I coexist happily with those who wri=
te differently.<br><br>My actual extremest position is to use IPA in a broa=
d transcription when your fonts support it,<br>but to do CLL with h when AS=
CII-only is required.<br>The IPA is a very widely accepted international st=
andard.<br>An IPA dress for lojban does not look that strange or different;=
 see this example.<br><p class=3D"m_6070446559653051309m_-63528907423635350=
01m_-4146451329771522225separator" style=3D"text-align:center;clear:both"><=
a href=3D"https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QhCJoJuyYo4/WU2TSwKPGII/AAAAAA=
AAAK0/FGRJOHGog04BlOq-NFyVj9__miCOT0E_gCLcBGAs/s1600/ipa-example.png" style=
=3D"margin-left:1em;margin-right:1em" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"https:/=
/lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QhCJoJuyYo4/WU2TSwKPGII/AAAAAAAAAK0/FGRJOHGog04=
BlOq-NFyVj9__miCOT0E_gCLcBGAs/s400/ipa-example.png" width=3D"400" height=3D=
"56" border=3D"0"></a></p><br>Now, which spelling is better and why?<br><br=
>In CLL1 3.3 the apostrophe, period, and comma are grouped together as char=
acters that divide syllables,<br>but the period and comma are silent ways o=
f separating words or syllables,<br>while the apostrophe is an audible way =
to separate syllables<br>in precisely the same way that &quot;t&quot; separ=
ates the syllables in &quot;mlatu&quot;.<br>Nothing special there.<br><br>I=
n the same section, we read<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The letter &quot;h&quot; =
is not used to represent this sound for two reasons:<br>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =
primarily in order to simplify explanations of the morphology,<br>=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 but also because the sound is very common, and the apostrophe<br>=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 is a visually lightweight representation of it.<br><br>T=
he sound is not so very common as to justifying it being a special case.<br=
>In 130000 words of lojban I can quickly lay my hands on, the letter freque=
ncies are as follows.<br>55421 i<br>46986 a<br>43758 u<br>38175 o<br>36048 =
l<br>27341 e<br>26722 n<br>21790 h/&#39;<br>20522 c<br>17803 s<br>16437 r<b=
r>14279 m<br>13755 t<br>13551 k<br>10828 d<br>=C2=A09181 b<br>=C2=A08832 p<=
br>=C2=A07037 j<br>=C2=A05199 g<br>=C2=A05017 f<br>=C2=A04713 y<br>=C2=A042=
50 z<br>=C2=A04130 v<br>=C2=A03530 x<br>The h trails behind all the basic v=
owels and behind the consonants l and n, too, in frequency of use.<br><br>E=
ven the measured time it takes to pronounce h, 77-109 msec for me,<br>simil=
ar in published results for other languages, is not like quicksilver.<br>In=
 this respect, h is one of the faster fricatives, but in the middle of the =
pack for vowels, stops, and liquids.<br>So, why does it need a &quot;lightw=
eight&quot; graphical representation?<br><br>What about the argument that s=
pelling with apostrophe instead of h<br>simplifies explanations of morpholo=
gy?<br>Except for &quot;e&quot; and &quot;o&quot; having the same phonology=
 rules,<br>every other pair of letters differs in its allowed usages -- the=
y are all special cases.<br>The h is far more constrained than the other co=
nsonants in its usage,<br>but it appears in every type of word except the g=
ismu.<br><br>I think the principal rule that makes h seem special is the co=
nstraint<br>that brivla have a consonant pair in the first five letters of =
the word, after excluding h and y.<br>Still, if in this respect h is not a =
real consonant and y is not a real vowel,<br>then why is y allowed in the a=
lphabet, but h not?<br><br>In terms of practical convenience, it is nice to=
 be able to search in an editor for whole words<br>and have the editor soft=
ware agree with you about what characters occur in words.<br>Typing /[a-z]+=
/ is much nicer than /[a-z&#39;,]+/.<br>And who wants to have to hack emacs=
 syntax tables to search for words?<br><br>So, after I come to the conclusi=
on that h/&#39; ought to be in the alphabet as much as y or any consonant,<=
br>I think about how best to represent it.<br>The answer to that depends on=
 past usage in other languages and on our desire to take advantage of<br>ha=
bit and familiarity to assist those learning lojban.<br>All the languages w=
ith latin alphabets that I know of that use the h sound<br>also use the h g=
rapheme to represent it.<br>French lacks the sound so it uses the letter as=
 a separator.<br>Spanish has only x which is written j.<br>Ancient Greek us=
ed to have a rough breathing sound represented by<br>a left-side arc or the=
 left half of capital HTA,<br>=C2=A0 while the apostrophe-looking mark repr=
esented the lack of an h at the start of a word.<br>Modern Greek has no h s=
ound, just a x.<br><br>The use of &quot;h&quot; for the unvoiced glottal fr=
icative seems like a slam dunk choice to me.<br><br>mihe la bremenli<span c=
lass=3D"m_6070446559653051309m_-6352890742363535001HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#=
888888"><br><br></font></span></div><span class=3D"m_6070446559653051309m_-=
6352890742363535001HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">

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