Received: from mail-qt0-f186.google.com ([209.85.216.186]:32889) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1dSFwY-0007T6-6H for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 03 Jul 2017 22:00:11 -0700 Received: by mail-qt0-f186.google.com with SMTP id c20sf20383105qte.0 for ; Mon, 03 Jul 2017 22:00:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=LJ8CYLm+XVGmhCrvAxlfWyHhw9sycNv9mcFhMirMlKw=; b=qLNvZpeITPrBjQzXl3X8osolmw/fiNKPi8yItL/1LS/LP06fkWWEceQpucPHsn2TJM muLhmmncfwwe0gNbbM1ftN7ipcvxlXGUYysf5Mx/P+8aXHqntrVNwzvX1BCskeQTwpPg HGW5nx6+yLXgG2GPZL6g/SA18iLo5Zd+MFOpn3Sj6O8fZRhTcM1CFoPaCbD7I24MkpJp +pikqrKbqW4G5ISxusydUCcEi6ld2zENvd1r7cNQpi7Z5sNe997NYoKFZwt+q+oDEr9K K0mAZL+lS/QZiU2wKWncWBF7+tW1Rzlf9+9VCSwPHkw/ekRTVJavYJS6ES/EnmYbRWyI RjNQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=LJ8CYLm+XVGmhCrvAxlfWyHhw9sycNv9mcFhMirMlKw=; b=aZPXqjTm242iiz5KKhBHH+gIvNwRe/k6RNef6IFnvgjOMISHfBEHwvKAxUHSa0ladJ g7GzsI7r2nO+1AhI/T3AC2zJQ+vzYHvBNBHieHJ4jEypuHa9+Wh4Yz5yxKxuNZo+KwBY aTZwyABJG0GOrv5prTC4cmE9WXNAnQ3ikyj9l11xYtf5rqWCvsETkr4d1STJf+7HdTIX 9ucglT8iL3exsss2rlt7P6rsO5g5rAlwJozWFd7zoszL47YbbBrRsHidDIN4moaf7JD1 WsjtFjOt5+LxBEb1LiDBPgCn+kIabhOXCcUcAbzgRZmZAfDYNJFHySB9dbHKx3MF38Ti B0JQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=LJ8CYLm+XVGmhCrvAxlfWyHhw9sycNv9mcFhMirMlKw=; b=szHJj05Zctc53iv8QwRtG3Ctn1ffWgDJutJnY1yxx5otnGwrsFYjNym0VuSKkAXBD7 sQmc+KAhhC4InZ+pT8/sKwlcCs1hpJgjkjwG6AQWsdTWioTeWQTrd9FCk3oySZ7khaI8 wp5Nf7+UtEtAsYkzWEw7H6T947VO1AvIqrWEGAOfDidCdC09HhArDO/QAAhKWBdBrtKV +1Demi+x1MHhT7P1A/nhUdRVCwfVAFf4h0Y9xqCTxe1usOgklceu2RpnMKQOXHtBeZZG gUA778XkxLUgZ0IpF/4f9S+ZQolJMZzy26sx3XB2Br/m/Q3Mi48a7vdT/Z0vMCL+zfAU pACg== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112NkTzws8eDMXw3KU8/RwHeC8Xds7/Oj91zqVXznL0sWaGTfoUn bjqXt6p5mivYtg== X-Received: by 10.36.80.193 with SMTP id m184mr93687itb.6.1499144403797; Mon, 03 Jul 2017 22:00:03 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.36.29.85 with SMTP id 82ls3678905itj.21.canary-gmail; Mon, 03 Jul 2017 22:00:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.36.26.134 with SMTP id 128mr946701iti.3.1499144403244; Mon, 03 Jul 2017 22:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2017 22:00:02 -0700 (PDT) From: vpbroman@gmail.com To: lojban Message-Id: <3e7a0230-68cb-4c98-835a-87caa081e646@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <36a8f524-5a33-4f1a-bcf3-a2c6c62cc59e@googlegroups.com> References: <02f60f56-9f52-4a1f-9c2f-5013407e6531@googlegroups.com> <36a8f524-5a33-4f1a-bcf3-a2c6c62cc59e@googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: Apologia, using h instead of yhy MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_2168_936137443.1499144402964" X-Original-Sender: vpbroman@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.5 X-Spam_score_int: -24 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_2168_936137443.1499144402964 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2169_1430804371.1499144402964" ------=_Part_2169_1430804371.1499144402964 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The problem of multiple IPA characters appearing for allophones of a single= =20 phoneme, e.g. "sanga" and "s=C9=91=C5=8Bg=C9=91", need not be a problem if = you use a=20 "broad transcription", i.e. if you neglect unimportant distinctions. This= =20 is the sanctioned principle that allows the IPA to be almost the same as=20 CLL orthography. You can write "sanga" even if you say "s=C9=91=C5=8Bg=C9=91". mihe la bremenli On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 8:47:27 PM UTC-7, guskant wrote: > > Above all, the CLL gives "the standard Lojban orthography" (Chapter 3,=20 > Section 1) and some "oddball orthographies" (Chapter 3, Section 12), but = it=20 > does not interdict any other orthographies. I recognize that the so-calle= d=20 > "standard orthography" is only a conventional representation of Lojban=20 > texts, and any other unambiguous orthographies are accepted. The conventi= on=20 > may change depending on time, place or community. > > I accept both {'} and {h} for the vowel separator of Lojban, but I would= =20 > like to make clear that the separator {'} i.e. {h} has a significant=20 > difference from consonants in morphology.=20 > > > Le vendredi 23 juin 2017 22:34:57 UTC, Vincent Broman a =C3=A9crit : >> >> >> >> My actual extremest position is to use IPA in a broad transcription when= =20 >> your fonts support it, >> but to do CLL with h when ASCII-only is required. >> The IPA is a very widely accepted international standard. >> An IPA dress for lojban does not look that strange or different; see thi= s=20 >> example. >> >> >> >> >> Now, which spelling is better and why? >> >> > > I don't agree to using IPA for written expression of Lojban texts, becaus= e=20 > a phoneme corresponds to some IPA characters. If IPA is used for written= =20 > texts, both [sanga] and [s=C9=91=C5=8Bg=C9=91] represent {sanga}. Such a = variety brings=20 > difficulty in searching for words in a text. > > =20 > >> In CLL1 3.3 the apostrophe, period, and comma are grouped together as=20 >> characters that divide syllables, >> but the period and comma are silent ways of separating words or syllable= s, >> while the apostrophe is an audible way to separate syllables >> in precisely the same way that "t" separates the syllables in "mlatu". >> Nothing special there. >> >> > Here are differences between the vowel separator {'} i.e. {h} and=20 > consonants. > > 1. consonants can follow or be followed by another consonant, for example= =20 > {st} and {ts}, while {'} i.e. {h} cannot;=20 > 2. consonants can be the first part of a word, for example {t} in {tavla}= =20 > and {tu}, while {'} i.e. {h} cannot. > > {'} i.e. {h} is therefore morphologically a vowel separator, not a=20 > consonant. > > Because it is only a vowel separator, if a Lojban orthography use, for=20 > example, {w} {j} {3} for IPA's [w] [j] [=CA=92] respectively, it does not= need=20 > any letter for a vowel separator. in such an orthography,=20 > {coi fi'i .i ui e'u do lebna pa lo titspi .i ji'a tcati e'u} > will be=20 > {coj fii .i wi eu do lebna pa lo titspi .i 3ia tcati eu}. > Similarly, {ii} will be {ji}, and {ji} will be {3i} in that orthography. > > In Lojban, any succession of plural vowels like [ii] [eu] are prohibited,= =20 > so {fii} {eu} {3ia} in that orthography are necessarily recognized as=20 > [fihi] [ehu] [=CA=92iha]. There is no ambiguity.=20 > > # By the way, the consonant separator {y} for [=C9=99] cannot be omitted = even=20 > in that orthography above. For example, {jesymabru} must be distinguished= =20 > from {je smabru}. > > =20 > >> So, after I come to the conclusion that h/' ought to be in the alphabet= =20 >> as much as y or any consonant, >> I think about how best to represent it. >> > > As I said at the beginning of this message, I accept both {'} and {h}. > > The advantanges of {'} are: > - simplicity in handwriting, and=20 > - recognizability of a vowel separator among consonants in reading texts;= =20 > the difference of them are explained above. > > The advantages of {h} are: > - simplicity in typing and in treating in programming scripts, and > - harmony with the consonant separator {y}; {h} is just like an=20 > upside-down of {y}, and I like that symmetry. > > > mi'e la guskant > > =20 > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_2169_1430804371.1499144402964 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The problem of multiple IPA characters appearing for allop= hones of a single phoneme, e.g. "sanga" and "s=C9=91=C5=8Bg= =C9=91", need not be a problem if you use a "broad transcription&= quot;, i.e. if you neglect unimportant distinctions. This is the sanctioned= principle that allows the IPA to be almost the same as CLL orthography.You can write "sanga" even if you say "s=C9=91=C5=8Bg=C9=91= ".

mihe la bremenli


On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 8:= 47:27 PM UTC-7, guskant wrote:
=
Above all, the CLL gives "the standard Lojban or= thography" (Chapter 3, Section 1) and some "oddball orthographies= " (Chapter 3, Section 12), but it does not interdict any other orthogr= aphies. I recognize that the so-called "standard orthography" is = only a conventional representation of Lojban texts, and any other unambiguo= us orthographies are accepted. The convention may change depending on time,= place or community.

I accept both {'} and {h}= for the vowel separator of Lojban, but I would like to make clear that the= separator {'} i.e. {h} has a significant difference from consonants in= morphology.=C2=A0


Le vendredi 23 juin 2017 22:34:5= 7 UTC, Vincent Broman a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:


My actual extremest position is to use IPA in a broad transcription when = your fonts support it,
but to do CLL with h when ASCII-only is required.=
The IPA is a very widely accepted international standard.
An IPA dre= ss for lojban does not look that strange or different; see this example.

<= /p>
Now, which spelling is better and why?



I don't agree to using IPA for written = expression of Lojban texts, because a phoneme corresponds to some IPA chara= cters. If IPA is used for written texts, both [sanga] and [s=C9=91=C5=8Bg= =C9=91] represent {sanga}. Such a variety brings difficulty in searching fo= r words in a text.

=C2=A0
In CLL1 3.3 the apostrophe, period,= and comma are grouped together as characters that divide syllables,
but= the period and comma are silent ways of separating words or syllables,
= while the apostrophe is an audible way to separate syllables
in precisel= y the same way that "t" separates the syllables in "mlatu&qu= ot;.
Nothing special there.


Here are differences between the vowel separator {'} i.e. {h} an= d consonants.

1. consonants can follow or be follo= wed by another consonant, for example {st} and {ts}, while {'} i.e. {h}= cannot;=C2=A0
2. consonants can be the first part of a word, for= example {t} in {tavla} and {tu}, while {'} i.e. {h} cannot.
=
{'} i.e. {h} is therefore morphologically a vowel separa= tor, not a consonant.

Because it is only a vowel s= eparator, if a Lojban orthography use, for example, {w} {j} {3} for IPA'= ;s [w] [j] [=CA=92] respectively, it does not need any letter for a vowel s= eparator. in such an orthography,=C2=A0
{coi fi'i .i ui e'= ;u do lebna pa lo titspi .i ji'a tcati e'u}
will be=C2=A0=
{coj fii .i wi eu do lebna pa lo titspi .i 3ia tcati eu}.
<= div>Similarly, {ii} will be {ji}, and {ji} will be {3i} in that orthography= .

In Lojban, any succession of plural vowels l= ike [ii] [eu] are prohibited, so {fii} {eu} {3ia} in that orthography are n= ecessarily recognized as [fihi] [ehu] [=CA=92iha]. There is no ambiguity.= =C2=A0

# By the way, the consonant separator {y} f= or [=C9=99] cannot be omitted even in that orthography above. For example, = {jesymabru} must be distinguished from {je smabru}.

=C2=A0
So, after I come to the conclusion that h/' ought to be in the alphab= et as much as y or any consonant,
I think about how best to represent it= .

As I said at the beginning= of this message, I accept both {'} and {h}.

T= he advantanges of {'} are:
- simplicity in handwriting, and= =C2=A0
- recognizability of a vowel separator among consonants in= reading texts; the difference of them are explained above.

<= /div>
The advantages of {h} are:
- simplicity in typing and i= n treating in programming scripts, and
- harmony with the consona= nt separator {y}; {h} is just like an upside-down of {y}, and I like that s= ymmetry.


mi'e = la guskant

=C2=A0

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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