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The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: Em terça-feira, 4 de julho de 2017 08:08:49 UTC+3, Vincent Broman escreveu: > > *The fact that lojban mekso represents a subset of the language that is > complex, little-used, and** a burden to learn, makes me as a > mathematician wonder whether we could could still express ourselves **in** > math**ematical terms** with much simpler verbal tools, and let the > complex cruft either get decommissioned, or just die of benign neglect. > Lispers are confident that all computations can be expressed with lists and > functions. Bridi seem general enough to do whatever needs doing. I > investigated how well we might do just using PA and bridi**, **inspired > by** these two essays**, but with less revolution**.* > > *http://teddyb.org/robin/tiki-index.php?page=Lojban%2C+Math%2C+mekso%2C+and+bridi+cmaci > * > > *https://github.com/RossOgilvie/essays/blob/master/source/fancu%20bridi%20mekso.md > * > > *It turns out that without changing the grammar, it's hard to do complex > quantifiers (you end up saying **"**poi zilkancu**"**) and nearly > impossible to do complex subscripts. So, we end up needing bridi, PA, VEI, > VEhO, and MOhE, assuming the current grammar. La camgusmis points out that **with > bridi **you **often **get intricately nested BE/BEI/BEhO constructions > that **can **become a mess, so a coinage like **"**nihai**"** or **"* > *poihi**"* *with**in the NU **part of speech* *greatly **simplifies the > appearance of nested expressions.* > > *Attached are all the **relevant **mekso examples in CLL11 extracted for > a comparison test, where I append to each one a restatement achieved > without most of the mekso grammar, just using my subset** with bridi**. > In terms of verbosity, the specialized mekso form in these samples saves > about 30% in syllables, compared to bridi math. In my view the simplicity > achieved **by the longer bridi [...] Content analysis details: (0.2 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [74.125.83.56 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 RBL: Good reputation (+3) [74.125.83.56 listed in wl.mailspike.net] 0.0 HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS From and EnvelopeFrom 2nd level mail domains are different -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (gleki.is.my.name[at]gmail.com) -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 2.0 HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH BODY: No description available. -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.2 FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN 2nd level domains in From and EnvelopeFrom freemail headers are different -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL Mailspike good senders ------=_Part_2273_498267652.1499157173740 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2274_724368480.1499157173741" ------=_Part_2274_724368480.1499157173741 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Em ter=C3=A7a-feira, 4 de julho de 2017 08:08:49 UTC+3, Vincent Broman escr= eveu: > > *The fact that lojban mekso represents a subset of the language that is= =20 > complex, little-used, and** a burden to learn, makes me as a=20 > mathematician wonder whether we could could still express ourselves **in*= *=20 > math**ematical terms** with much simpler verbal tools, and let the=20 > complex cruft either get decommissioned, or just die of benign neglect.= =20 > Lispers are confident that all computations can be expressed with lists a= nd=20 > functions. Bridi seem general enough to do whatever needs doing. I=20 > investigated how well we might do just using PA and bridi**, **inspired= =20 > by** these two essays**, but with less revolution**.* > > *http://teddyb.org/robin/tiki-index.php?page=3DLojban%2C+Math%2C+mekso%2C= +and+bridi+cmaci=20 > * > > *https://github.com/RossOgilvie/essays/blob/master/source/fancu%20bridi%2= 0mekso.md=20 > * > > *It turns out that without changing the grammar, it's hard to do complex= =20 > quantifiers (you end up saying **"**poi zilkancu**"**) and nearly=20 > impossible to do complex subscripts. So, we end up needing bridi, PA, VEI= ,=20 > VEhO, and MOhE, assuming the current grammar. La camgusmis points out tha= t **with=20 > bridi **you **often **get intricately nested BE/BEI/BEhO constructions=20 > that **can **become a mess, so a coinage like **"**nihai**"** or **"* > *poihi**"* *with**in the NU **part of speech* *greatly **simplifies the= =20 > appearance of nested expressions.* > > *Attached are all the **relevant **mekso examples in CLL11 extracted for= =20 > a comparison test, where I append to each one a restatement achieved=20 > without most of the mekso grammar, just using my subset** with bridi**.= =20 > In terms of verbosity, the specialized mekso form in these samples saves= =20 > about 30% in syllables, compared to bridi math. In my view the simplicity= =20 > achieved **by the longer bridi expressions **would be worth **the=20 > verbosity**, especially since bridi math is easily extensible by coining= =20 > words, while mekso syntax is fixed**,** and crossing the boundary between= =20 > **mekso and bridi** is **effortful.* > > *One should note in addition, that all the bridi equations I cite could b= e=20 > simplified at the top level just like the following example** by omitting= =20 > the "du"**: "li mu cu du lo nihai sumji li re li ci kei" becomes "li mu= =20 > cu sumji li re li ci", saving 5 syllables each time, at the cost of looki= ng=20 > a little different from math**.* > > *mihe la bremenli* > > mekso-bridi.pdf > > https://app.box.com/s/mvasmtp4dmlz9wzfx1jdhu4knkpj4gmb=20 > > Looks nice. Can you please=20 1. remove final {.i} or add {.i} to the beginnings of both versions? 2. use equal width font and plain text / or just count syllables in both=20 versions? i'm surprised meknamcu2 is text. Many examples are still not a full conversion into predicate logic,=20 although, probably, this wasn't the goal. =20 > mekso-bridi.odt > > https://app.box.com/s/6nk1ysst94896cobk82i14sc9u6vg9zc > > mekso-syllables.txt > > https://app.box.com/s/qsydv85ska6mc43nx4k2jl1rle9un59h > > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_2274_724368480.1499157173741 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Em ter=C3=A7a-feira, 4 de julho de 2017 08:08:49 U= TC+3, Vincent Broman escreveu:
=09 =09 =09 =09

The fact that lojban mekso represents a subset of the language that is complex, little-used, and a burden to learn, makes me as a mathematician wonder whether we could could still express ourselves in mathematical terms with much simpler verbal tools, and let the complex cruft either get decommissioned, or just die of benign neglect. Lispers are confident that all computations can be expressed with lists and functions. Bridi seem general enough to do whatever needs doing. I investigated how well we might do just using PA and bridi, inspired by these two essays= , but with less revolution.

http://teddyb.org/robin/tiki-in= dex.php?page=3DLojban%2C+Math%2C+mekso%2C+and+bridi+cmaci

https://github.com/RossOgilvie/essays/blob/master/source/= fancu%20bridi%20mekso.md

It turns out that without changing the grammar, it's hard to do complex quantifiers (you end up saying "poi zilkancu") and nearly impossible to do complex subscripts. So, we end up needing bridi, PA, VEI, VEhO, and MOhE, assuming the current grammar. La camgusmis points out that with bridi you often get intricately nested BE/BEI/BEhO constructions that <= span style=3D"font-weight:normal">can become a mess, so a coinage like "ni= hai"= or "= poihi" within the NU part of speech greatly simplifies the appearance of nested expressions.

Attached are all the relevant mekso examples in CLL11 extracted for a comparison test, where I append to each one a restatement achieved without most of the mekso grammar, just using my subset with bridi. In terms of verbosity, the specialized mekso form in these samples saves about 30% in syllables, compared to bridi math. In my view the simplicity achieved by the longer bridi expressions would be worth the verbosity, especially since bridi math is easily extensible by coining words, while mekso syntax is fixed, and crossing the boundary between mekso and bridi is effortful.

One should note in addition, that all the bridi equations I cite could be simplified at the top level just like the following example by omitting the "du": "li mu cu du lo nihai sumji li re li ci kei" becomes "li mu cu sumji li re li ci", saving 5 syllables each time, at the cost of looking a little different from math.

mihe la bremenli

mekso-bridi.pdf

ht= tps://app.box.com/s/mvasmtp4dmlz9wzfx1jdhu4knkpj4gmb


Looks nice. Can you please=C2=A0
1. remove final {.i} or add {.i} to the beginnings of both versions?
2. use equal width font and plain text / or just count syllables in b= oth versions?

i'm surprised meknamcu2 is text.=
Many examples are still not a full conversion into predicate log= ic, although, probably, this wasn't the goal.

= =C2=A0

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