Received: from mail-pf0-f192.google.com ([209.85.192.192]:34708) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1dSQ9t-0000St-Ep for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 04 Jul 2017 08:54:39 -0700 Received: by mail-pf0-f192.google.com with SMTP id y6sf19696862pff.1 for ; Tue, 04 Jul 2017 08:54:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=hN1u575yUuXhH9l43Dw/alWsAUBcLYpJCATuLGYuEnM=; b=YllF7EqgnobXImSxPn4HlAwknO/VwhbOHXyuCdE2d0fdeUpqgCH2mK0OKDbWUzj7ZF zb8erBF45EjOc6wcWSaZLdtL6VtNZz1dndgrhv41Zk/ApINzxAcPMLAOy9SY5F4q1L// YIZ1Wl47f3Ex6/n0yqECGOb6G4QVJlRtGD/OKjKJBQQ3F4Mqe1Ts+tBaVpsoVWv9ZQEh nPETO2uOgVAmhfEwGgIWszKEnPlOni7ZtP0JgqwQehaOXhtMKWRYe9GBxGd+bCEc5R+X Xqxg3tXDc5Ow67FZYnHtE4wSbAaBzgHwbFdcGHgtNLtEGjgV0mNtOdN1+cAqGq/BjR+i 71Yw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=hN1u575yUuXhH9l43Dw/alWsAUBcLYpJCATuLGYuEnM=; b=sbRKhq8zH7MW32ekCzPpbK6xm4Kd7CfNOl/Ij41Kv1+YyH0K2WiMrNqZsjIz4//+QO VisNL6Phj+DEeEInj8ejXP9RdZF7TtVfNbVTQyNkU9urOU7vxMhEHDoMHJTnlhYRDEx0 1ABKQ7wN2zbFLjGoq6Dbvrr1CeeORFgjhQkpaglPPG1T3acqYwcercX5MEfBTbBG/e7G 3vR4TCYuVxFTFotn88Uh/b2mrKSsm53bwdYXaGsYhw3tRUKIWkEYqsSOWB/MbCuGnZCG Vf951eEZnrdN+uvkiB+C0RW9q+fjdFi08mvKRKHLQJ+A2Wq/ebbnp8wYeelOXfYBuMCG 1TYg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=hN1u575yUuXhH9l43Dw/alWsAUBcLYpJCATuLGYuEnM=; b=J/UEos4i9bjWEE4lpUP8UXsXKLSsuUCdL4yYS5DdOskXOzuWXB/5TIrXXZESl215Na z8mkLDEh80pzKwQpts1AzY+OHO4t8MkXA9PFVfpOgqPsBVnb7QOVph5Fu5KBcKGKuvMz BMhqgpJ0eFRZtu1mHLlfzYoQv6bFzfrwzRLDFL7LuOAtfV0j/tkJh8Oj18hRtwPkmYKd ltw2eHQu6TSKPX0abT6n/gpcAF/mc+z7nQ9nBz+5BltI4eASPxC3TtIOoRnJtbT37ngo O93yPEZGaOlzJ281L/todQCqj7cYIbDzrEgkN02Q4hFwPYx7VKyYAM24e/ZILG0N9GSF TEKQ== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw1138KuUO4NWwGlELii8J4uVbntU2GInVJNkZ3ol7xHSKRpsxMtpT 4iKuTWmLksfSAQ== X-Received: by 10.36.84.75 with SMTP id t72mr499890ita.10.1499183671190; Tue, 04 Jul 2017 08:54:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.107.138.200 with SMTP id c69ls7734235ioj.23.gmail; Tue, 04 Jul 2017 08:54:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.36.29.212 with SMTP id 203mr807258itj.5.1499183670431; Tue, 04 Jul 2017 08:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 08:54:29 -0700 (PDT) From: guskant To: lojban Message-Id: <6ea24494-0b24-406e-9b9f-284081589bc8@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <2c13e620-c697-46aa-ab20-46f4cd5671c2@googlegroups.com> References: <2c13e620-c697-46aa-ab20-46f4cd5671c2@googlegroups.com> Subject: [lojban] Re: bridi mathematics MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_2463_653333261.1499183669985" X-Original-Sender: gusni.kantu@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -4.1 (----) X-Spam_score: -4.1 X-Spam_score_int: -40 X-Spam_bar: ---- ------=_Part_2463_653333261.1499183669985 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_2464_1227906072.1499183669985" ------=_Part_2464_1227906072.1499183669985 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I like the augmentability of bridi math. I actually added to my grammatical= =20 parser https://mw.lojban.org/papri/zantufa most of mathematical cmavos=20 suggested by Curtis Franks=20 https://mw.lojban.org/papri/zantufa_nu_selma'o_stika , but I always think= =20 that it would be better if people can freely create mathematical functions= =20 without adding new cmavo to the grammar.=20 The cmavo {nihai} in selmaho NU is parsed by my grammatical parser=20 http://guskant.github.io/gerna_cipra/zantufa-1.9999.html , and therefore=20 your system should be parsed by it.=20 However, I think there is one disharmonious point in your examples of bridi= =20 math. In my opinion, cmavos in PA3 have property of functions rather than= =20 numerals. For example, {fihu} is a function of two variables, {nihu} is a= =20 function of one variable, etc. The functions in the official grammar should= =20 be in VUhU, but they are in PA only because of the Lojban designers'=20 misunderstanding that PA is easier to use than VUhU for those frequent=20 functions. Actually, the VUhU math grammar can be much simpler as shown in= =20 https://mw.lojban.org/papri/zantufa_mekso . In that grammar, cmavos in PA3= =20 will be able to moved to VUhU without any difficulties. Considering the meaning of PA3, why don't you abandon PA3 while you=20 abandoned VUhU?=20 Considering the shortness of VUhU math, it is pragmatic that we keep some= =20 frequent cmavos in VUhU, which should be augmented by cmavos moved from=20 PA3, and create freely more technical functions in brivla rather than in=20 VUhU. mihe la guskant Le mardi 4 juillet 2017 05:08:49 UTC, Vincent Broman a =C3=A9crit : > > *The fact that lojban mekso represents a subset of the language that is= =20 > complex, little-used, and** a burden to learn, makes me as a=20 > mathematician wonder whether we could could still express ourselves **in*= *=20 > math**ematical terms** with much simpler verbal tools, and let the=20 > complex cruft either get decommissioned, or just die of benign neglect.= =20 > Lispers are confident that all computations can be expressed with lists a= nd=20 > functions. Bridi seem general enough to do whatever needs doing. I=20 > investigated how well we might do just using PA and bridi**, **inspired= =20 > by** these two essays**, but with less revolution**.* > > *http://teddyb.org/robin/tiki-index.php?page=3DLojban%2C+Math%2C+mekso%2C= +and+bridi+cmaci=20 > * > > *https://github.com/RossOgilvie/essays/blob/master/source/fancu%20bridi%2= 0mekso.md=20 > * > > *It turns out that without changing the grammar, it's hard to do complex= =20 > quantifiers (you end up saying **"**poi zilkancu**"**) and nearly=20 > impossible to do complex subscripts. So, we end up needing bridi, PA, VEI= ,=20 > VEhO, and MOhE, assuming the current grammar. La camgusmis points out tha= t **with=20 > bridi **you **often **get intricately nested BE/BEI/BEhO constructions=20 > that **can **become a mess, so a coinage like **"**nihai**"** or **"* > *poihi**"* *with**in the NU **part of speech* *greatly **simplifies the= =20 > appearance of nested expressions.* > > *Attached are all the **relevant **mekso examples in CLL11 extracted for= =20 > a comparison test, where I append to each one a restatement achieved=20 > without most of the mekso grammar, just using my subset** with bridi**.= =20 > In terms of verbosity, the specialized mekso form in these samples saves= =20 > about 30% in syllables, compared to bridi math. In my view the simplicity= =20 > achieved **by the longer bridi expressions **would be worth **the=20 > verbosity**, especially since bridi math is easily extensible by coining= =20 > words, while mekso syntax is fixed**,** and crossing the boundary between= =20 > **mekso and bridi** is **effortful.* > > *One should note in addition, that all the bridi equations I cite could b= e=20 > simplified at the top level just like the following example** by omitting= =20 > the "du"**: "li mu cu du lo nihai sumji li re li ci kei" becomes "li mu= =20 > cu sumji li re li ci", saving 5 syllables each time, at the cost of looki= ng=20 > a little different from math**.* > > *mihe la bremenli* > > mekso-bridi.pdf > > https://app.box.com/s/mvasmtp4dmlz9wzfx1jdhu4knkpj4gmb > > mekso-bridi.odt > > https://app.box.com/s/6nk1ysst94896cobk82i14sc9u6vg9zc > > mekso-syllables.txt > > https://app.box.com/s/qsydv85ska6mc43nx4k2jl1rle9un59h > > > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_2464_1227906072.1499183669985 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I like the augmentability of bridi math. I actua= lly added to my grammatical parser https://mw.lojban.org/papri/zantufa most= of mathematical cmavos suggested by Curtis Franks https://mw.lojban.org/pa= pri/zantufa_nu_selma'o_stika , but I always think that it would be bett= er if people can freely create mathematical functions without adding new cm= avo to the grammar.=C2=A0

The cmavo {nihai} in sel= maho NU is parsed by my grammatical parser http://guskant.github.io/gerna_c= ipra/zantufa-1.9999.html , and therefore your system should be parsed by it= .=C2=A0

However, I think there is one disharmoniou= s point in your examples of bridi math. In my opinion, cmavos in PA3 have p= roperty of functions rather than numerals. For example, {fihu} is a functio= n of two variables, {nihu} is a function of one variable, etc. The function= s in the official grammar should be in VUhU, but they are in PA only becaus= e of the Lojban designers' misunderstanding that PA is easier to use th= an VUhU for those frequent functions. Actually, the VUhU math grammar can b= e much simpler as shown in https://mw.lojban.org/papri/zantufa_mekso . In t= hat grammar, cmavos in PA3 will be able to moved to VUhU without any diffic= ulties.

Considering the meaning of PA3, why don= 9;t you abandon PA3 while you abandoned VUhU?=C2=A0

Considering the shortness of VUhU math, it is pragmatic that we keep some= frequent cmavos in VUhU, which should be augmented by cmavos moved from PA= 3, and create freely more technical functions in brivla rather than in VUhU= .

mihe la guskant


Le= mardi 4 juillet 2017 05:08:49 UTC, Vincent Broman a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
=09 =09 =09 =09

The fact that lojban mekso represents a subset of the language that is complex, little-used, and a burden to learn, makes me as a mathematician wonder whether we could could still express ourselves in mathematical terms with much simpler verbal tools, and let the complex cruft either get decommissioned, or just die of benign neglect. Lispers are confident that all computations can be expressed with lists and functions. Bridi seem general enough to do whatever needs doing. I investigated how well we might do just using PA and bridi, inspired by these two essays= , but with less revolution.

http://teddyb.org/robin/tiki-in= dex.php?page=3DLojban%2C+Math%2C+mekso%2C+and+bridi+cmaci

https://github.com/RossOgilvie/essays/blob/master/source/= fancu%20bridi%20mekso.md

It turns out that without changing the grammar, it's hard to do complex quantifiers (you end up saying "poi zilkancu") and nearly impossible to do complex subscripts. So, we end up needing bridi, PA, VEI, VEhO, and MOhE, assuming the current grammar. La camgusmis points out that with bridi you often get intricately nested BE/BEI/BEhO constructions that <= span style=3D"font-weight:normal">can become a mess, so a coinage like "ni= hai"= or "= poihi" within the NU part of speech greatly simplifies the appearance of nested expressions.

Attached are all the relevant mekso examples in CLL11 extracted for a comparison test, where I append to each one a restatement achieved without most of the mekso grammar, just using my subset with bridi. In terms of verbosity, the specialized mekso form in these samples saves about 30% in syllables, compared to bridi math. In my view the simplicity achieved by the longer bridi expressions would be worth the verbosity, especially since bridi math is easily extensible by coining words, while mekso syntax is fixed, and crossing the boundary between mekso and bridi is effortful.

One should note in addition, that all the bridi equations I cite could be simplified at the top level just like the following example by omitting the "du": "li mu cu du lo nihai sumji li re li ci kei" becomes "li mu cu sumji li re li ci", saving 5 syllables each time, at the cost of looking a little different from math.

mihe la bremenli

mekso-bridi.pdf

https://app.box.com/s/mvasmtp4dm= lz9wzfx1jdhu4knkpj4gmb

mekso-bridi.odt

https:= //app.box.com/s/6nk1ysst94896cobk82i14sc9u6vg9zc

mekso-= syllables.txt

https://app.box.com/s/qsydv85ska6mc43nx4k2j= l1rle9un59h



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