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From: MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2017 17:50:23 -0500
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Apologia, using h instead of yhy
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IOW, use IPA for phonemes instead of allophones, IIUYC.

stevo

On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 12:00 AM, <vpbroman@gmail.com> wrote:

> The problem of multiple IPA characters appearing for allophones of a
> single phoneme, e.g. "sanga" and "s=C9=91=C5=8Bg=C9=91", need not be a pr=
oblem if you use
> a "broad transcription", i.e. if you neglect unimportant distinctions. Th=
is
> is the sanctioned principle that allows the IPA to be almost the same as
> CLL orthography.
> You can write "sanga" even if you say "s=C9=91=C5=8Bg=C9=91".
>
> mihe la bremenli
>
>
>
> On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 8:47:27 PM UTC-7, guskant wrote:
>>
>> Above all, the CLL gives "the standard Lojban orthography" (Chapter 3,
>> Section 1) and some "oddball orthographies" (Chapter 3, Section 12), but=
 it
>> does not interdict any other orthographies. I recognize that the so-call=
ed
>> "standard orthography" is only a conventional representation of Lojban
>> texts, and any other unambiguous orthographies are accepted. The convent=
ion
>> may change depending on time, place or community.
>>
>> I accept both {'} and {h} for the vowel separator of Lojban, but I would
>> like to make clear that the separator {'} i.e. {h} has a significant
>> difference from consonants in morphology.
>>
>>
>> Le vendredi 23 juin 2017 22:34:57 UTC, Vincent Broman a =C3=A9crit :
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My actual extremest position is to use IPA in a broad transcription whe=
n
>>> your fonts support it,
>>> but to do CLL with h when ASCII-only is required.
>>> The IPA is a very widely accepted international standard.
>>> An IPA dress for lojban does not look that strange or different; see
>>> this example.
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QhCJoJuyYo4/WU2TSwKPGII/AAAAAAAAAK0=
/FGRJOHGog04BlOq-NFyVj9__miCOT0E_gCLcBGAs/s1600/ipa-example.png>
>>>
>>> Now, which spelling is better and why?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I don't agree to using IPA for written expression of Lojban texts,
>> because a phoneme corresponds to some IPA characters. If IPA is used for
>> written texts, both [sanga] and [s=C9=91=C5=8Bg=C9=91] represent {sanga}=
. Such a variety
>> brings difficulty in searching for words in a text.
>>
>>
>>
>>> In CLL1 3.3 the apostrophe, period, and comma are grouped together as
>>> characters that divide syllables,
>>> but the period and comma are silent ways of separating words or
>>> syllables,
>>> while the apostrophe is an audible way to separate syllables
>>> in precisely the same way that "t" separates the syllables in "mlatu".
>>> Nothing special there.
>>>
>>>
>> Here are differences between the vowel separator {'} i.e. {h} and
>> consonants.
>>
>> 1. consonants can follow or be followed by another consonant, for exampl=
e
>> {st} and {ts}, while {'} i.e. {h} cannot;
>> 2. consonants can be the first part of a word, for example {t} in {tavla=
}
>> and {tu}, while {'} i.e. {h} cannot.
>>
>> {'} i.e. {h} is therefore morphologically a vowel separator, not a
>> consonant.
>>
>> Because it is only a vowel separator, if a Lojban orthography use, for
>> example, {w} {j} {3} for IPA's [w] [j] [=CA=92] respectively, it does no=
t need
>> any letter for a vowel separator. in such an orthography,
>> {coi fi'i .i ui e'u do lebna pa lo titspi .i ji'a tcati e'u}
>> will be
>> {coj fii .i wi eu do lebna pa lo titspi .i 3ia tcati eu}.
>> Similarly, {ii} will be {ji}, and {ji} will be {3i} in that orthography.
>>
>> In Lojban, any succession of plural vowels like [ii] [eu] are prohibited=
,
>> so {fii} {eu} {3ia} in that orthography are necessarily recognized as
>> [fihi] [ehu] [=CA=92iha]. There is no ambiguity.
>>
>> # By the way, the consonant separator {y} for [=C9=99] cannot be omitted=
 even
>> in that orthography above. For example, {jesymabru} must be distinguishe=
d
>> from {je smabru}.
>>
>>
>>
>>> So, after I come to the conclusion that h/' ought to be in the alphabet
>>> as much as y or any consonant,
>>> I think about how best to represent it.
>>>
>>
>> As I said at the beginning of this message, I accept both {'} and {h}.
>>
>> The advantanges of {'} are:
>> - simplicity in handwriting, and
>> - recognizability of a vowel separator among consonants in reading texts=
;
>> the difference of them are explained above.
>>
>> The advantages of {h} are:
>> - simplicity in typing and in treating in programming scripts, and
>> - harmony with the consonant separator {y}; {h} is just like an
>> upside-down of {y}, and I like that symmetry.
>>
>>
>> mi'e la guskant
>>
>>
>>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace">IOW, use IPA for phonemes instead of allophones, IIUYC.=C2=
=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,mono=
space"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace">stevo</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 12:00 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:vpbroman@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">vpbroman@gmail.com</a=
>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">The =
problem of multiple IPA characters appearing for allophones of a single pho=
neme, e.g. &quot;sanga&quot; and &quot;s=C9=91=C5=8Bg=C9=91&quot;, need not=
 be a problem if you use a &quot;broad transcription&quot;, i.e. if you neg=
lect unimportant distinctions. This is the sanctioned principle that allows=
 the IPA to be almost the same as CLL orthography.<br>You can write &quot;s=
anga&quot; even if you say &quot;s=C9=91=C5=8Bg=C9=91&quot;.<br><br>mihe la=
 bremenli<div><div class=3D"h5"><br><br><br>On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 8=
:47:27 PM UTC-7, guskant wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div>Above all, the CLL gives &quot;the standard Lojban orthog=
raphy&quot; (Chapter 3, Section 1) and some &quot;oddball orthographies&quo=
t; (Chapter 3, Section 12), but it does not interdict any other orthographi=
es. I recognize that the so-called &quot;standard orthography&quot; is only=
 a conventional representation of Lojban texts, and any other unambiguous o=
rthographies are accepted. The convention may change depending on time, pla=
ce or community.</div><div><br></div><div>I accept both {&#39;} and {h} for=
 the vowel separator of Lojban, but I would like to make clear that the sep=
arator {&#39;} i.e. {h} has a significant difference from consonants in mor=
phology.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><br>Le vendredi 23 juin 2017 22:34:57 UT=
C, Vincent Broman a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
"><div dir=3D"ltr"><p style=3D"text-align:center;clear:both"><br></p><br>My=
 actual extremest position is to use IPA in a broad transcription when your=
 fonts support it,<br>but to do CLL with h when ASCII-only is required.<br>=
The IPA is a very widely accepted international standard.<br>An IPA dress f=
or lojban does not look that strange or different; see this example.<br><p =
style=3D"text-align:center;clear:both"><a href=3D"https://lh3.googleusercon=
tent.com/-QhCJoJuyYo4/WU2TSwKPGII/AAAAAAAAAK0/FGRJOHGog04BlOq-NFyVj9__miCOT=
0E_gCLcBGAs/s1600/ipa-example.png" style=3D"margin-left:1em;margin-right:1e=
m" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"https://lh3.googleusercon=
tent.com/-QhCJoJuyYo4/WU2TSwKPGII/AAAAAAAAAK0/FGRJOHGog04BlOq-NFyVj9__miCOT=
0E_gCLcBGAs/s400/ipa-example.png" width=3D"400" border=3D"0" height=3D"56">=
</a></p><br>Now, which spelling is better and why?<br><br></div></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I don&#39;t agree to using IPA for wri=
tten expression of Lojban texts, because a phoneme corresponds to some IPA =
characters. If IPA is used for written texts, both [sanga] and [s=C9=91=C5=
=8Bg=C9=91] represent {sanga}. Such a variety brings difficulty in searchin=
g for words in a text.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">In CLL1 3.3 the apostrophe, perio=
d, and comma are grouped together as characters that divide syllables,<br>b=
ut the period and comma are silent ways of separating words or syllables,<b=
r>while the apostrophe is an audible way to separate syllables<br>in precis=
ely the same way that &quot;t&quot; separates the syllables in &quot;mlatu&=
quot;.<br>Nothing special there.<br><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div><div>Here are differences between the vowel separator {&#39;} i.e. {h} =
and consonants.</div><div><br></div><div>1. consonants can follow or be fol=
lowed by another consonant, for example {st} and {ts}, while {&#39;} i.e. {=
h} cannot;=C2=A0</div><div>2. consonants can be the first part of a word, f=
or example {t} in {tavla} and {tu}, while {&#39;} i.e. {h} cannot.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>{&#39;} i.e. {h} is therefore morphologically a vowel sepa=
rator, not a consonant.</div><div><br></div><div>Because it is only a vowel=
 separator, if a Lojban orthography use, for example, {w} {j} {3} for IPA&#=
39;s [w] [j] [=CA=92] respectively, it does not need any letter for a vowel=
 separator. in such an orthography,=C2=A0</div><div>{coi fi&#39;i .i ui e&#=
39;u do lebna pa lo titspi .i ji&#39;a tcati e&#39;u}</div><div>will be=C2=
=A0</div><div>{coj fii .i wi eu do lebna pa lo titspi .i 3ia tcati eu}.</di=
v><div>Similarly, {ii} will be {ji}, and {ji} will be {3i} in that orthogra=
phy.<br></div><div><br></div><div>In Lojban, any succession of plural vowel=
s like [ii] [eu] are prohibited, so {fii} {eu} {3ia} in that orthography ar=
e necessarily recognized as [fihi] [ehu] [=CA=92iha]. There is no ambiguity=
.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div># By the way, the consonant separator {y} =
for [=C9=99] cannot be omitted even in that orthography above. For example,=
 {jesymabru} must be distinguished from {je smabru}.</div><div><br></div></=
div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;ma=
rgin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"lt=
r">So, after I come to the conclusion that h/&#39; ought to be in the alpha=
bet as much as y or any consonant,<br>I think about how best to represent i=
t.<br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><div>As I said at the beginnin=
g of this message, I accept both {&#39;} and {h}.</div><div><br></div><div>=
The advantanges of {&#39;} are:</div><div>- simplicity in handwriting, and=
=C2=A0</div><div>- recognizability of a vowel separator among consonants in=
 reading texts; the difference of them are explained above.</div><div><br><=
/div><div>The advantages of {h} are:</div><div>- simplicity in typing and i=
n treating in programming scripts, and</div><div>- harmony with the consona=
nt separator {y}; {h} is just like an upside-down of {y}, and I like that s=
ymmetry.</div><div></div></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>mi&#39;e =
la guskant</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></blockquote></div></=
div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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