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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Apologia, using h instead of yhy
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From: Vincent Broman <vpbroman@gmail.com>
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Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2017 09:35:33 -0700
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stevo,

Yes. The level of broadness/narrowness in the transcription depends on
your practical needs. If you need phonemes, then phonemes are what you use.
The IPA supports recording an insane amount of precision, so you have to
draw your line somewhere on how much precision the situation calls for.

Vincent Broman, mihe la bremenli

On 07/04/2017 03:50 PM, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> IOW, use IPA for phonemes instead of allophones, IIUYC.=20
>=20
> stevo
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> On Tue, Jul 4, 2017 at 12:00 AM, <vpbroman@gmail.com
> <mailto:vpbroman@gmail.com>> wrote:
>=20
>     The problem of multiple IPA characters appearing for allophones of a
>     single phoneme, e.g. "sanga" and "s=C9=91=C5=8Bg=C9=91", need not be =
a problem if
>     you use a "broad transcription", i.e. if you neglect unimportant
>     distinctions. This is the sanctioned principle that allows the IPA
>     to be almost the same as CLL orthography.
>     You can write "sanga" even if you say "s=C9=91=C5=8Bg=C9=91".
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>     mihe la bremenli
>=20
>=20
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>     On Saturday, June 24, 2017 at 8:47:27 PM UTC-7, guskant wrote:
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>         Above all, the CLL gives "the standard Lojban orthography"
>         (Chapter 3, Section 1) and some "oddball orthographies" (Chapter
>         3, Section 12), but it does not interdict any other
>         orthographies. I recognize that the so-called "standard
>         orthography" is only a conventional representation of Lojban
>         texts, and any other unambiguous orthographies are accepted. The
>         convention may change depending on time, place or community.
>=20
>         I accept both {'} and {h} for the vowel separator of Lojban, but
>         I would like to make clear that the separator {'} i.e. {h} has a
>         significant difference from consonants in morphology.=20
>=20
>=20
>         Le vendredi 23 juin 2017 22:34:57 UTC, Vincent Broman a =C3=A9cri=
t :
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>=20
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>             My actual extremest position is to use IPA in a broad
>             transcription when your fonts support it,
>             but to do CLL with h when ASCII-only is required.
>             The IPA is a very widely accepted international standard.
>             An IPA dress for lojban does not look that strange or
>             different; see this example.
>=20
>             <https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QhCJoJuyYo4/WU2TSwKPGII/A=
AAAAAAAAK0/FGRJOHGog04BlOq-NFyVj9__miCOT0E_gCLcBGAs/s1600/ipa-example.png>
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>             Now, which spelling is better and why?
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>=20
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>         I don't agree to using IPA for written expression of Lojban
>         texts, because a phoneme corresponds to some IPA characters. If
>         IPA is used for written texts, both [sanga] and [s=C9=91=C5=8Bg=
=C9=91]
>         represent {sanga}. Such a variety brings difficulty in searching
>         for words in a text.
>=20
>         =20
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>             In CLL1 3.3 the apostrophe, period, and comma are grouped
>             together as characters that divide syllables,
>             but the period and comma are silent ways of separating words
>             or syllables,
>             while the apostrophe is an audible way to separate syllables
>             in precisely the same way that "t" separates the syllables
>             in "mlatu".
>             Nothing special there.
>=20
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>         Here are differences between the vowel separator {'} i.e. {h}
>         and consonants.
>=20
>         1. consonants can follow or be followed by another consonant,
>         for example {st} and {ts}, while {'} i.e. {h} cannot;=20
>         2. consonants can be the first part of a word, for example {t}
>         in {tavla} and {tu}, while {'} i.e. {h} cannot.
>=20
>         {'} i.e. {h} is therefore morphologically a vowel separator, not
>         a consonant.
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>         Because it is only a vowel separator, if a Lojban orthography
>         use, for example, {w} {j} {3} for IPA's [w] [j] [=CA=92]
>         respectively, it does not need any letter for a vowel separator.
>         in such an orthography,=20
>         {coi fi'i .i ui e'u do lebna pa lo titspi .i ji'a tcati e'u}
>         will be=20
>         {coj fii .i wi eu do lebna pa lo titspi .i 3ia tcati eu}.
>         Similarly, {ii} will be {ji}, and {ji} will be {3i} in that
>         orthography.
>=20
>         In Lojban, any succession of plural vowels like [ii] [eu] are
>         prohibited, so {fii} {eu} {3ia} in that orthography are
>         necessarily recognized as [fihi] [ehu] [=CA=92iha]. There is no
>         ambiguity.=20
>=20
>         # By the way, the consonant separator {y} for [=C9=99] cannot be
>         omitted even in that orthography above. For example, {jesymabru}
>         must be distinguished from {je smabru}.
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>         =20
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>             So, after I come to the conclusion that h/' ought to be in
>             the alphabet as much as y or any consonant,
>             I think about how best to represent it.
>=20
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>         As I said at the beginning of this message, I accept both {'}
>         and {h}.
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>         The advantanges of {'} are:
>         - simplicity in handwriting, and=20
>         - recognizability of a vowel separator among consonants in
>         reading texts; the difference of them are explained above.
>=20
>         The advantages of {h} are:
>         - simplicity in typing and in treating in programming scripts, an=
d
>         - harmony with the consonant separator {y}; {h} is just like an
>         upside-down of {y}, and I like that symmetry.
>=20
>=20
>         mi'e la guskant
>=20
>         =20
>=20
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