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From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 11:03:28 -0600
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Is "i" the end or the beginning of a statement? what
 about "niho"?
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It's the beginning. vau is the end of a statement and can normally be left
out.

Same for ni'o.

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 11:43 PM, <vpbroman@gmail.com> wrote:

> The question of whether "i" terminates a statement or begins one may not
> seem to make a lot of difference,
> but for me it determines whether I place the "i" at the end or beginning
> of a written line and determines when I pause in speech between statements.
> From the syntax rules, there seems to be no distinction, because "i"
> mainly serves as a statement separator,
> and at the beginning of an utterance as well as at the end the "i" is
> permitted but optional.
>
> The critical question for interpreting the "i" may be:  what happens when
> there is a long pause between statements, or perhaps a speaker turn?
> At what point is the prior statement complete, ready to wrap and ship,
> fully committed?
> It is clear that no statement is complete until you have seen the "i" (or
> "niho"...),
> and if it hasn't emerged yet, we are still waiting to see how the
> statement may yet turn out.
> Most bridi do not have every sumti place filled, but even if all the
> places are filled and then a delay stretches on and on,
> you cannot tell whether there is still a "vau zoho" to come, or a "fau lo
> nu lo xarju ba vofli", or a "giha mi bebna".
> Until you hear the "i", you are just left hanging.
>
> That is why "i" terminates statements, and why I place it at the end of
> written lines, and before a spoken pause if I pause.
>
> Syntax like "i je bo" makes it seem like "i" may be starting this
> statement, but I think not.
> The "i" is terminating the previous statement, even if that statement is
> empty.
> "i i je bo fagri" and "i je bo fagri" are equally grammatical utterances,
> while "je bo fagri" is ungrammatical because "je" does not connect with
> anything on its LHS.
>
> This made me wonder whether "niho" and "nohi" should be treated the same
> as "i", and now I think not.
> First, even though people try to do it, you cannot say "... niho ba bo
> ...".
> The "jek/joik/stag BO" connects two statements together, and this does not
> work over a paragraph break.
> Separate paragraphs do not connect this way.
>
> Second, when you are finishing one statement, you often do not know
> whether the next statement is going to be in a new paragraph.
> You haven't decided what you will say next yet at that point.
> Only after the delay for thought in between statements might you newly
> realize: now I'm gonna turn to something different.
> And since it is different, it won't be connected to the previous statement
> logically or with a tag.
>
> That is why I now begin new paragraphs with the niho or nohi at the start
> of the written line, and after a possible spoken pause.
> The "i" that optionally terminates the prior statement may or may not be
> included just before the "niho".
>
> E.g.
>
> mi pu gleki lo nu penmi do i
> je bo mi terpa lo nu rinsa do i
>
> niho mi ba finti lo se cukta poi srana lo nu terpa i
>
> mihe bremenli
>
>
>
> --
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>


-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div>It&#39;s the beginning. vau is the end of a statement=
 and can normally be left out.<br><br></div>Same for ni&#39;o.<br></div><di=
v class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Jul 12, 2017=
 at 11:43 PM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:vpbroman@gmail.com" =
target=3D"_blank">vpbroman@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">The question of whether &quot;i&quot; te=
rminates a statement or begins one may not seem to make a lot of difference=
, <br>but for me it determines whether I place the &quot;i&quot; at the end=
 or beginning of a written line and determines when I pause in speech betwe=
en statements.<br>From the syntax rules, there seems to be no distinction, =
because &quot;i&quot; mainly serves as a statement separator,<br>and at the=
 beginning of an utterance as well as at the end the &quot;i&quot; is permi=
tted but optional.<br><br>The critical question for interpreting the &quot;=
i&quot; may be:=C2=A0 what happens when there is a long pause between state=
ments, or perhaps a speaker turn?<br>At what point is the prior statement c=
omplete, ready to wrap and ship, fully committed?<br>It is clear that no st=
atement is complete until you have seen the &quot;i&quot; (or &quot;niho&qu=
ot;...), <br>and if it hasn&#39;t emerged yet, we are still waiting to see =
how the statement may yet turn out.<br>Most bridi do not have every sumti p=
lace filled, but even if all the places are filled and then a delay stretch=
es on and on,<br>you cannot tell whether there is still a &quot;vau zoho&qu=
ot; to come, or a &quot;fau lo nu lo xarju ba vofli&quot;, or a &quot;giha =
mi bebna&quot;.<br>Until you hear the &quot;i&quot;, you are just left hang=
ing.<br><br>That is why &quot;i&quot; terminates statements, and why I plac=
e it at the end of written lines, and before a spoken pause if I pause.<br>=
<br>Syntax like &quot;i je bo&quot; makes it seem like &quot;i&quot; may be=
 starting this statement, but I think not.<br>The &quot;i&quot; is terminat=
ing the previous statement, even if that statement is empty.<br>&quot;i i j=
e bo fagri&quot; and &quot;i je bo fagri&quot; are equally grammatical utte=
rances,<br>while &quot;je bo fagri&quot; is ungrammatical because &quot;je&=
quot; does not connect with anything on its LHS.<br><br>This made me wonder=
 whether &quot;niho&quot; and &quot;nohi&quot; should be treated the same a=
s &quot;i&quot;, and now I think not.<br>First, even though people try to d=
o it, you cannot say &quot;... niho ba bo ...&quot;.<br>The &quot;jek/joik/=
stag BO&quot; connects two statements together, and this does not work over=
 a paragraph break.<br>Separate paragraphs do not connect this way.<br><br>=
Second, when you are finishing one statement, you often do not know whether=
 the next statement is going to be in a new paragraph.<br>You haven&#39;t d=
ecided what you will say next yet at that point.<br>Only after the delay fo=
r thought in between statements might you newly realize: now I&#39;m gonna =
turn to something different.<br>And since it is different, it won&#39;t be =
connected to the previous statement logically or with a tag.<br><br>That is=
 why I now begin new paragraphs with the niho or nohi at the start of the w=
ritten line, and after a possible spoken pause.<br>The &quot;i&quot; that o=
ptionally terminates the prior statement may or may not be included just be=
fore the &quot;niho&quot;.<br><br>E.g.<br><br>mi pu gleki lo nu penmi do i<=
br>je bo mi terpa lo nu rinsa do i<br><br>niho mi ba finti lo se cukta poi =
srana lo nu terpa i<br><br>mihe bremenli<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=
=3D"#888888"><br><br><br><br></font></span></div><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><fo=
nt color=3D"#888888">

<p></p>

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et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/<wbr>optout</a>.<br>
</font></span></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">mu&#39;o mi&#39;e =
.aionys.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi =
patfu do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br=
></div>
</div>

<p></p>

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