Received: from mail-qt0-f185.google.com ([209.85.216.185]:33211) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1dVtFN-0008Pr-Bq for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Thu, 13 Jul 2017 22:34:45 -0700 Received: by mail-qt0-f185.google.com with SMTP id c20sf9054811qte.0 for ; Thu, 13 Jul 2017 22:34:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=a0PqSyNFAjbdlC1Gm33qYQKt4vDEWMk/QiUGRCdtF9c=; b=bDGbgd2IECB+rNjGchethuLM3xqTvFkmz2kBYTEkKEpvT28lXLwxvwE48QLwMt1yhW OLNaadkfqKdniMwtpkViNS5PDOQYw5oGEMa4QdhMmKG1OCHlaGzGU/QQ5Qfgfh6Ct4tk maCxw9W4VjhdVa2yGS7Y9y593UJ7bBweHqFh3C053Hs3VFE/VVNP2V2nHhkWajP3+e8K 2v37cKwL1lw7L5uMwTUuUUE2aADFYCDRrFtYXMRm6FCVNlvQWGFxnjrQxnn03ElLEAqC HWmr0b8l5s5erl5eA7z4hIZTPL2HWC2+BHOveu3veaI9CEsGUeZHRBydJz+X2JIhsi2p dQsQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=a0PqSyNFAjbdlC1Gm33qYQKt4vDEWMk/QiUGRCdtF9c=; b=W/0LqrTeT6QUSWMW2w4ATfCa8qDqj5SCxYE0GswOYd9Rx/iRXU7rYXoCeC1WN909k8 87w4QW2rWIRvEsZhFTru6lUFLcaA5VX5tKpGrz+TG03piJSgrdyDgaDC6OmEUO1E500d JP/ZyAgbcNdIhmj4XRzvBJTdOMzsbVBlRYQ5vHWfnLE7d2RBocZmDU/3aTKK5E16W9LW kW3pp6xSAYw02xh1mypgTS9/84f6me/KWB4nkH63iUbjxh7mnD6h+2+YqraMtROqEczf +z6GUy6pCgsOFzcGc/kjAU1nSdcAEMbAwfWQiJ9uk5Gi9H+krW0wd9+wfXesXUci93Qj q+1Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=a0PqSyNFAjbdlC1Gm33qYQKt4vDEWMk/QiUGRCdtF9c=; b=L+fmAfwGw8ras7LNjt5he5ayq+Or5p7IPMNL8UKjfRwdR4pQTwxpXBQwRZMmeuM53x sYPgKR/56qgRmW5WrF7WsxTPgwgrIrHOHKDSFqHC9yBvvwyYRYorCujCqwwRlxuOGDkI SvEiv/OTRJjJb7XHp3Xc/AXzmx714h45P5G25w2QyTZKCG5deUIMzbcZ+Vgye9TMiAez rAMi4lwyu/WVab9tNpPSYaOXHlHQJ7wBbGXz25R6h2H/ZCwMWOkwUDmPxBv9RDl88PeY pmGssOYvxp/vGANqZRuWBFnJaDBF9HhwXoaqSv7197DHnw/l3hG1gWJRz44Wnb4OOJoq KjGg== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw112UUN5CVZ4y920uBOMUr0Za/6/7r5nxucBb56p9N0lOsAnoIzAs +Syq8k/2S8+b4A== X-Received: by 10.36.101.68 with SMTP id u65mr100456itb.0.1500010467684; Thu, 13 Jul 2017 22:34:27 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.36.78.75 with SMTP id r72ls800970ita.1.canary-gmail; Thu, 13 Jul 2017 22:34:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.31.167.5 with SMTP id q5mr23212vke.12.1500010467225; Thu, 13 Jul 2017 22:34:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 13 Jul 2017 22:34:26 -0700 (PDT) From: vpbroman@gmail.com To: lojban Message-Id: <804c3861-ceed-4656-ba72-604e47400342@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <8f8f40c3-8dc6-472e-b0e0-e8ecf43b18ec@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Is "i" the end or the beginning of a statement? what about "niho"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_1060_966257046.1500010466992" X-Original-Sender: vpbroman@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_1060_966257046.1500010466992 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1061_1166823848.1500010466993" ------=_Part_1061_1166823848.1500010466993 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" A vau is not the end, it can be followed by free elements that modify the preceding statement, and if there was a gihek, then vau can also be followed by tail-terms and even another gihe clause. Only I/NIhO is the real end. On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:03:30 AM UTC-7, aionys wrote: > > It's the beginning. vau is the end of a statement and can normally be left > out. > > Same for ni'o. > > On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 11:43 PM, > wrote: > >> The question of whether "i" terminates a statement or begins one may not >> seem to make a lot of difference, >> but for me it determines whether I place the "i" at the end or beginning >> of a written line and determines when I pause in speech between statements. >> From the syntax rules, there seems to be no distinction, because "i" >> mainly serves as a statement separator, >> and at the beginning of an utterance as well as at the end the "i" is >> permitted but optional. >> >> The critical question for interpreting the "i" may be: what happens when >> there is a long pause between statements, or perhaps a speaker turn? >> At what point is the prior statement complete, ready to wrap and ship, >> fully committed? >> It is clear that no statement is complete until you have seen the "i" (or >> "niho"...), >> and if it hasn't emerged yet, we are still waiting to see how the >> statement may yet turn out. >> Most bridi do not have every sumti place filled, but even if all the >> places are filled and then a delay stretches on and on, >> you cannot tell whether there is still a "vau zoho" to come, or a "fau lo >> nu lo xarju ba vofli", or a "giha mi bebna". >> Until you hear the "i", you are just left hanging. >> >> That is why "i" terminates statements, and why I place it at the end of >> written lines, and before a spoken pause if I pause. >> >> Syntax like "i je bo" makes it seem like "i" may be starting this >> statement, but I think not. >> The "i" is terminating the previous statement, even if that statement is >> empty. >> "i i je bo fagri" and "i je bo fagri" are equally grammatical utterances, >> while "je bo fagri" is ungrammatical because "je" does not connect with >> anything on its LHS. >> >> This made me wonder whether "niho" and "nohi" should be treated the same >> as "i", and now I think not. >> First, even though people try to do it, you cannot say "... niho ba bo >> ...". >> The "jek/joik/stag BO" connects two statements together, and this does >> not work over a paragraph break. >> Separate paragraphs do not connect this way. >> >> Second, when you are finishing one statement, you often do not know >> whether the next statement is going to be in a new paragraph. >> You haven't decided what you will say next yet at that point. >> Only after the delay for thought in between statements might you newly >> realize: now I'm gonna turn to something different. >> And since it is different, it won't be connected to the previous >> statement logically or with a tag. >> >> That is why I now begin new paragraphs with the niho or nohi at the start >> of the written line, and after a possible spoken pause. >> The "i" that optionally terminates the prior statement may or may not be >> included just before the "niho". >> >> E.g. >> >> mi pu gleki lo nu penmi do i >> je bo mi terpa lo nu rinsa do i >> >> niho mi ba finti lo se cukta poi srana lo nu terpa i >> >> mihe bremenli >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_1061_1166823848.1500010466993 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A vau is not the end, it can be followed by free elements = that modify the preceding statement,
and if there was a gihek, then vau = can also be followed by tail-terms and even another gihe clause.
Only I/= NIhO is the real end.


On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:03:30 AM = UTC-7, aionys wrote:
It's the beginning. vau is the end of a statement and can= normally be left out.

Same for ni'o.

On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 11:43 PM, <
The question of whether "i" terminates a statem= ent or begins one may not seem to make a lot of difference,
but for me = it determines whether I place the "i" at the end or beginning of = a written line and determines when I pause in speech between statements.From the syntax rules, there seems to be no distinction, because "i&q= uot; mainly serves as a statement separator,
and at the beginning of an = utterance as well as at the end the "i" is permitted but optional= .

The critical question for interpreting the "i" may be:= =C2=A0 what happens when there is a long pause between statements, or perha= ps a speaker turn?
At what point is the prior statement complete, ready = to wrap and ship, fully committed?
It is clear that no statement is comp= lete until you have seen the "i" (or "niho"...),
an= d if it hasn't emerged yet, we are still waiting to see how the stateme= nt may yet turn out.
Most bridi do not have every sumti place filled, bu= t even if all the places are filled and then a delay stretches on and on,you cannot tell whether there is still a "vau zoho" to come, or= a "fau lo nu lo xarju ba vofli", or a "giha mi bebna".=
Until you hear the "i", you are just left hanging.

Tha= t is why "i" terminates statements, and why I place it at the end= of written lines, and before a spoken pause if I pause.

Syntax like= "i je bo" makes it seem like "i" may be starting this = statement, but I think not.
The "i" is terminating the previou= s statement, even if that statement is empty.
"i i je bo fagri"= ; and "i je bo fagri" are equally grammatical utterances,
whil= e "je bo fagri" is ungrammatical because "je" does not = connect with anything on its LHS.

This made me wonder whether "= niho" and "nohi" should be treated the same as "i"= , and now I think not.
First, even though people try to do it, you canno= t say "... niho ba bo ...".
The "jek/joik/stag BO" c= onnects two statements together, and this does not work over a paragraph br= eak.
Separate paragraphs do not connect this way.

Second, when yo= u are finishing one statement, you often do not know whether the next state= ment is going to be in a new paragraph.
You haven't decided what you= will say next yet at that point.
Only after the delay for thought in be= tween statements might you newly realize: now I'm gonna turn to somethi= ng different.
And since it is different, it won't be connected to th= e previous statement logically or with a tag.

That is why I now begi= n new paragraphs with the niho or nohi at the start of the written line, an= d after a possible spoken pause.
The "i" that optionally termi= nates the prior statement may or may not be included just before the "= niho".

E.g.

mi pu gleki lo nu penmi do i
je bo mi ter= pa lo nu rinsa do i

niho mi ba finti lo se cukta poi srana lo nu ter= pa i

mihe bremenli



--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.goo= gle.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/= d/optout.



--
mu&#= 39;o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .= i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your f= ather. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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