Received: from mail-it0-f62.google.com ([209.85.214.62]:33888) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1dVzgM-000112-Hw for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 05:26:55 -0700 Received: by mail-it0-f62.google.com with SMTP id v193sf11233338itc.1 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 05:26:54 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1500035208; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=fMLvmCYe4/az7gtmiRmWz/bQflrrLZfKhoWm/SqQNdtCQ/G4gyhA5wz1szIjkQkhkJ lO9avi+pzQ+cb1NUqJH9TldYLAY8ZCAoGj+jtXk56cFtf4d/y64HnVj0alv89WyBNfio ihQp1dLoOwDxbHfm+tiNuU+IUszSzqTay9fpmSzvPqdU8s1uPx5mNgp/9cncUZYge/Vx X2jcRN9ZzPqtJvlYcdtGntGeTbYEas5njpNcdieZbjG+mGa9kP6zHBI1p+dgjZGN8icR osXMELBO4I9C9X2PrVepNHSZHwCLODXqX5/XjVhJ/gHkZ+dc0CzzeRkOuFo2s4RsL2a0 cNXQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to:to:subject:message-id:date :from:references:in-reply-to:mime-version:arc-authentication-results :arc-message-signature:sender:dkim-signature:dkim-signature :arc-authentication-results; bh=PVW2z4CTpnsrfEHfd7bV5rKx6zKfkinXt4wL0PsAImM=; b=LY0VglCabBldKHmnvfZfYAxSEH8WAJLU3FxeP4alBM1ldrUSmo5Wk5/QkEvL0i7Q7P 88xJ3Pk1ht0z1U5VKrV2SbE1JhmxuX84tLbHG4kmH/gYc1IpAIOCWNW46+8kZHfX7/Fb T5cxvRcCPDHrUby+2DJjvIwW0823BFs7bA4jZuz8BhhiCf0YDBHcdVs7EVrmIzvpfnwQ 6oPUqnNwsCD3MKwbax/Vbvf9wZqEpgcfBN4BxbaVuc9f8abZw1c2ftoqWUpaHK3ZA0Rt kS3pSR4IO6JozFLfW93TSRfnO44G8rGLyrsAXqM7aorA4QQGq2HQeq3UVP/1R306IITA c8yg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.b=iQKAqLuZ; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c06::235 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mturniansky@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help :list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=PVW2z4CTpnsrfEHfd7bV5rKx6zKfkinXt4wL0PsAImM=; b=dq6pfHALPC6O/p2jgvk6mvX19PP+cAWCv08iWH+9VjZLzHxV9Gjwdx8n43mN0Wcn0z p+KGMuYCRnrUyv57ClziY+eEqunfOZKxc8V6OJr6aDm8LRcbYMv5YGhn8LAKjU+TYezt /wHsouG42YXgZD1RyPPogZqNMD1DtAhTztLTjA37tVZyQfmm6z8sfYPvTM7/3Q9bn5xZ SOC6br15x8Iadg5uWAAiKDUgkb07WwwvA2Hl0LigTNM198Je4oEJi2I2bIkDJCz3RWww XX2XuRi2OXzf3b9V16UPtz//5sfzais87JZl7cBUvBWUh/Vjbmg6z8an8SIFlZ2ule/s F8KA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=PVW2z4CTpnsrfEHfd7bV5rKx6zKfkinXt4wL0PsAImM=; b=TMTVRVAPAOEAMReL/TgxpGsunRcnX+vYm/fHFvhBxhHmfMn86hn6z5Pio3j9qj7NyG 7yhoF1yF6yzf0Ku0hIxHrT5bC1NdOZvEjWDkDBEp6yJO+TeVkD7AZ0ZgTuVoSZfCHutW Q+iYUUGVDASJmQMn2yClj35wzCIxqDb5eoOMA8J+Z8vK8shyLicyCrEvIWO6FTXtGqy1 /EuPEiSTPjJltnMbZPCXZvuTFm14F3K+ooav3nz+3skhZlDKqdH6LmO+1veJTVSKEaYd vEOokBVgsaAqzHGQZtWq79wz8yWpgcyLTA9nPlcbptv1uyWaITxA9rUXKLSFN879sse7 LOVg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=PVW2z4CTpnsrfEHfd7bV5rKx6zKfkinXt4wL0PsAImM=; b=im/48lXw/j73sMvaBWZKwwAccuQ5xMx9b5QdbFxhQnpKRkHr+dT+lvDzPxybyC4dsK sOzceOr/PtY5BFLd0CHIYP6+RYbIIlgXKliV319hFicPgft2OJ+3XqrunE3zheu/51k0 SQb1mTbmPqS8sVRYxBecV+I8VTjobPKVzvR8xS0/gugdPkaRmWMwyvzFXAaZwmfNKsIM H31MKMhnd8yP1byacdga6M7QABRsL4GYDXhqYLKYAplyhFxB+uZZD9YbqJ+lyxd0Twrz RyMuIIDk7e5wgbegPSeBYAtNam3sBOxhAp6eO1AkiKiEfvLych1WUdmVV+WRF4G2n+qk 17Fw== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw113jKUdaCFrGPh6Nt32fR7HOohJLw9FOJuXMrONAKYdMv+Wouxq+ fkuWHZC8MQqaAQ== X-Received: by 10.36.124.10 with SMTP id a10mr156636itd.6.1500035207835; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 05:26:47 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.107.178.11 with SMTP id b11ls6721785iof.10.gmail; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 05:26:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.99.56.25 with SMTP id f25mr9184859pga.135.1500035207405; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 05:26:47 -0700 (PDT) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1500035207; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=BvNyiS132rCu5VgPeg1zQKw0ulU/akwdNTTw1fi/+Xpqy82zTAS33/s1zWk3NdQ158 edthyZGIon0yc8l63fzvYgqT8sj6MOHHfdhQQBpSOUjFxrcc5QX474qURSoOWOvZezoX gGrPemubVK2gUCFdyNe1u6xnLc961CJsoWCBGLeamtZAVria1WOWTlo0ClivzBGAOb0p Th75s9HXhxL5so+CF4lTHPJkEQgGIyAxeos6PjT7FHXV1Dua36L1gfEwhxmEz/48CgAh Lvsta4q0Cn22PLQWUpEs5DpKUznmFdhJ5B9OScl6ovw0Qsb4+YLCCN3qqzjS+Wk43F5z ottQ== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=to:subject:message-id:date:from:references:in-reply-to:mime-version :dkim-signature:arc-authentication-results; bh=7AtXwGvOhejN6k/k442qsi6IjjNIaVRfUUjAIBB7wiM=; b=AsvV+yYcx1BodvDxXFjQp8B+S2cMlzUNAC0XhuXQRDCYRADn27cPxazL38yRfHbnJV CYZwYq6H6XOk7Kk7je0NJeZ4UWdUGk3Yu2f8DEc1tDP8sRAkVVW9hXqamOfJGb3ro3fD yRemcqx8jxM32hnJmPe2EQXSH7jIxCqX9I8gBqlIJegXYp8Yn/VUZZ1raLUnIFPvsecl sXh09KzPeTcVwDY1R0iu306DmRQH/haMSUq+3cmTTG2TDWXXBeu/zqcJX5cfsegS/GKw xsv1WQ4/nHbQnVDIjr5vfyPq/noBc/WURoi8y98zko4rDrN4V1sLrn3QEhBSngIlAVv4 7gKg== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.b=iQKAqLuZ; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c06::235 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mturniansky@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Received: from mail-oi0-x235.google.com (mail-oi0-x235.google.com. [2607:f8b0:4003:c06::235]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 21si223483itj.0.2017.07.14.05.26.47 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 14 Jul 2017 05:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c06::235 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4003:c06::235; Received: by mail-oi0-x235.google.com with SMTP id l130so69948053oib.1 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 05:26:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.202.218.7 with SMTP id r7mr6072435oig.219.1500035206424; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 05:26:46 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.38.228 with HTTP; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 05:26:05 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <804c3861-ceed-4656-ba72-604e47400342@googlegroups.com> References: <8f8f40c3-8dc6-472e-b0e0-e8ecf43b18ec@googlegroups.com> <804c3861-ceed-4656-ba72-604e47400342@googlegroups.com> From: Michael Turniansky Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 08:26:05 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Is "i" the end or the beginning of a statement? what about "niho"? To: lojban@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a113d15fea1328d0554462947" X-Original-Sender: Mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.b=iQKAqLuZ; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4003:c06::235 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=mturniansky@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- --001a113d15fea1328d0554462947 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" .i is neither the beginning nor end. It is between sentences. It is officially a "linker". If I hear you say "i" I will wait for you to say your next utterance. OTOH, If you are really that worried about turn taking, and do not want to really on silences that every single human language (spoken or signed), using "mu'o do'u" will do it. --gejyspa On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 1:34 AM, wrote: > A vau is not the end, it can be followed by free elements that modify the > preceding statement, > and if there was a gihek, then vau can also be followed by tail-terms and > even another gihe clause. > Only I/NIhO is the real end. > > > On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:03:30 AM UTC-7, aionys wrote: >> >> It's the beginning. vau is the end of a statement and can normally be >> left out. >> >> Same for ni'o. >> >> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 11:43 PM, wrote: >> >>> The question of whether "i" terminates a statement or begins one may not >>> seem to make a lot of difference, >>> but for me it determines whether I place the "i" at the end or beginning >>> of a written line and determines when I pause in speech between statements. >>> From the syntax rules, there seems to be no distinction, because "i" >>> mainly serves as a statement separator, >>> and at the beginning of an utterance as well as at the end the "i" is >>> permitted but optional. >>> >>> The critical question for interpreting the "i" may be: what happens >>> when there is a long pause between statements, or perhaps a speaker turn? >>> At what point is the prior statement complete, ready to wrap and ship, >>> fully committed? >>> It is clear that no statement is complete until you have seen the "i" >>> (or "niho"...), >>> and if it hasn't emerged yet, we are still waiting to see how the >>> statement may yet turn out. >>> Most bridi do not have every sumti place filled, but even if all the >>> places are filled and then a delay stretches on and on, >>> you cannot tell whether there is still a "vau zoho" to come, or a "fau >>> lo nu lo xarju ba vofli", or a "giha mi bebna". >>> Until you hear the "i", you are just left hanging. >>> >>> That is why "i" terminates statements, and why I place it at the end of >>> written lines, and before a spoken pause if I pause. >>> >>> Syntax like "i je bo" makes it seem like "i" may be starting this >>> statement, but I think not. >>> The "i" is terminating the previous statement, even if that statement is >>> empty. >>> "i i je bo fagri" and "i je bo fagri" are equally grammatical utterances, >>> while "je bo fagri" is ungrammatical because "je" does not connect with >>> anything on its LHS. >>> >>> This made me wonder whether "niho" and "nohi" should be treated the same >>> as "i", and now I think not. >>> First, even though people try to do it, you cannot say "... niho ba bo >>> ...". >>> The "jek/joik/stag BO" connects two statements together, and this does >>> not work over a paragraph break. >>> Separate paragraphs do not connect this way. >>> >>> Second, when you are finishing one statement, you often do not know >>> whether the next statement is going to be in a new paragraph. >>> You haven't decided what you will say next yet at that point. >>> Only after the delay for thought in between statements might you newly >>> realize: now I'm gonna turn to something different. >>> And since it is different, it won't be connected to the previous >>> statement logically or with a tag. >>> >>> That is why I now begin new paragraphs with the niho or nohi at the >>> start of the written line, and after a possible spoken pause. >>> The "i" that optionally terminates the prior statement may or may not be >>> included just before the "niho". >>> >>> E.g. >>> >>> mi pu gleki lo nu penmi do i >>> je bo mi terpa lo nu rinsa do i >>> >>> niho mi ba finti lo se cukta poi srana lo nu terpa i >>> >>> mihe bremenli >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "lojban" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a113d15fea1328d0554462947 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
.i is neither the beginning nor end.=C2=A0 It is between s= entences.=C2=A0 It is officially a "linker".=C2=A0 If I hear you = say "i" I will wait for you to say your next utterance.=C2=A0 OTO= H, =C2=A0If you are really that worried about turn taking, and do not want = to really on silences that every single human language (spoken or signed), = using "mu'o do'u" will do it.

=C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa


= On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 1:34 AM, <vpbroman@gmail.com> wrot= e:
A vau is not the end,= it can be followed by free elements that modify the preceding statement,and if there was a gihek, then vau can also be followed by tail-terms and= even another gihe clause.
Only I/NIhO is the real end.=


On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:03:30 AM UTC-7, aionys wrote:<= /span>
It's the beginning. vau is the end of a statement and can nor= mally be left out.

Same for ni'o.
On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at = 11:43 PM, <vpbr...@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
The question of whether "i" terminat= es a statement or begins one may not seem to make a lot of difference,
= but for me it determines whether I place the "i" at the end or be= ginning of a written line and determines when I pause in speech between sta= tements.
From the syntax rules, there seems to be no distinction, becaus= e "i" mainly serves as a statement separator,
and at the begin= ning of an utterance as well as at the end the "i" is permitted b= ut optional.

The critical question for interpreting the "i"= ; may be:=C2=A0 what happens when there is a long pause between statements,= or perhaps a speaker turn?
At what point is the prior statement complet= e, ready to wrap and ship, fully committed?
It is clear that no statemen= t is complete until you have seen the "i" (or "niho"...= ),
and if it hasn't emerged yet, we are still waiting to see how th= e statement may yet turn out.
Most bridi do not have every sumti place f= illed, but even if all the places are filled and then a delay stretches on = and on,
you cannot tell whether there is still a "vau zoho" to= come, or a "fau lo nu lo xarju ba vofli", or a "giha mi beb= na".
Until you hear the "i", you are just left hanging.
That is why "i" terminates statements, and why I place it a= t the end of written lines, and before a spoken pause if I pause.

Sy= ntax like "i je bo" makes it seem like "i" may be start= ing this statement, but I think not.
The "i" is terminating th= e previous statement, even if that statement is empty.
"i i je bo f= agri" and "i je bo fagri" are equally grammatical utterances= ,
while "je bo fagri" is ungrammatical because "je" = does not connect with anything on its LHS.

This made me wonder wheth= er "niho" and "nohi" should be treated the same as &quo= t;i", and now I think not.
First, even though people try to do it, = you cannot say "... niho ba bo ...".
The "jek/joik/stag B= O" connects two statements together, and this does not work over a par= agraph break.
Separate paragraphs do not connect this way.

Second= , when you are finishing one statement, you often do not know whether the n= ext statement is going to be in a new paragraph.
You haven't decided= what you will say next yet at that point.
Only after the delay for thou= ght in between statements might you newly realize: now I'm gonna turn t= o something different.
And since it is different, it won't be connec= ted to the previous statement logically or with a tag.

That is why I= now begin new paragraphs with the niho or nohi at the start of the written= line, and after a possible spoken pause.
The "i" that optiona= lly terminates the prior statement may or may not be included just before t= he "niho".

E.g.

mi pu gleki lo nu penmi do i
je = bo mi terpa lo nu rinsa do i

niho mi ba finti lo se cukta poi srana = lo nu terpa i

mihe bremenli


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroup= s.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban= .
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout= .



--
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmim= a lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot= Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a113d15fea1328d0554462947--