Received: from mail-ua0-f188.google.com ([209.85.217.188]:33191) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.87) (envelope-from ) id 1dW1sg-0008PS-Ry for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 07:47:48 -0700 Received: by mail-ua0-f188.google.com with SMTP id l38sf7005303uaf.0 for ; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 07:47:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=oW+03cQa0/ed7FNhFmFyaFpP3xjmmt9QJOmjMNGhFyE=; b=OpKBQXjLqCejV2eCkaGgpA4+lbXYfh9TJwEva285kPbvl+4+jC4Fqa5xpSF4Ez1wu5 Of1Yv69OZAqaesXU5NN8wD1AU9FMQkYsMyIyEM9PGkm4iN1T9uPfuMIcncKxYcH+6QI9 Mncx7GywTh4igw8OUoSdOxzM1WorsdiOESpJ+AhQ3o7+lahpW7BbkOTW+FJ0zBrdMmSG jGQrmLWi73Fsj2ATBNefprn2faR+0q+Tj1NaXqKwRV6oJ4ly+2LdX0Q+YfU+1A2/3u6e 5W9n3W2aE1i0XfnyygA9PchTQ5F1uAeh0y87UH8axt+QhnKRRgsNUc02SNPTvy8IB2M/ miRw== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=oW+03cQa0/ed7FNhFmFyaFpP3xjmmt9QJOmjMNGhFyE=; b=Jd0Qyyt45UcneF5dL08nhDJeO85+sWcfPhe7qAZxVJG6HcdIUoC+F7Ry+GQ/Fdl591 Y5Cz9hGlrqA9XWfNtVunwQvE+rNPIzYF4Sw4MknZF04n2BDHQ8EQY5f2e0yaNjVDLcB9 N3oAs/T+1vpT1wSyZTh7/Tda+I3Y63nhZI1mEO2HyYG4PGs7TNmaDVInM2O2eiM9BOfb LDA+Uee+j/RyGnD6qUEu5Je8T1Fxa4p31VmrnRyq513lJPfWjrlXy9JywbKt8iKKsoiX aW7NA8naF3p30ciXRYaB7Dc4v1EeLSLW1+Z5jdfSXzoyhD2HoSErHwLXQpvEdKylFL8q dhlA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=oW+03cQa0/ed7FNhFmFyaFpP3xjmmt9QJOmjMNGhFyE=; b=tD4V1XyQV2MYDcxFStQxBUx1qBP9QdNd3R1CDe7t5aG9r1VkxcF3x1PRzRtSogdux5 QHB3KGVHm7a9wkkpLOaqoEWoXcaDaNjfPEbYVN2hNa69a469++Nn/J4FaNprDAB48QIT DfZTJm7HTDxBasHk8rbYRG369lJbhEwD64Xh64Cbr0hfCAnMNm1BogcPfIITkbk9/jE4 rwwTrzFfkxfDtRUe/Xb/YvoDoRADJ9/sjBj6LS1fGMxum8zgNjZQbLiHcPYDjgxaoFY/ bqqSMwXrGkqlcpNEUUpwTuQertPpsE1H+ARheFt9ngashnkOmd1N4o0a/ydIqK1yACpG jQ7A== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AIVw111XfwMIEG7M1mzxHH8ZN1GWElCKODAcckivmVJp10xFkEYpQl0V ofhJ+eOYXN1Row== X-Received: by 10.36.80.211 with SMTP id m202mr180895itb.7.1500043660133; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 07:47:40 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.36.71.72 with SMTP id t69ls1657330itb.0.canary-gmail; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 07:47:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.31.48.151 with SMTP id w145mr30050vkw.16.1500043659675; Fri, 14 Jul 2017 07:47:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 07:47:39 -0700 (PDT) From: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com To: lojban Message-Id: <606fc7ed-583d-46aa-9265-c816d369c50c@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <8f8f40c3-8dc6-472e-b0e0-e8ecf43b18ec@googlegroups.com> <804c3861-ceed-4656-ba72-604e47400342@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Is "i" the end or the beginning of a statement? what about "niho"? MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_1224_1296763872.1500043659469" X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.8 X-Spam_score_int: -17 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_1224_1296763872.1500043659469 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_1225_1349445383.1500043659470" ------=_Part_1225_1349445383.1500043659470 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" {vau mu'o do} and {vau vau mu'o do} must solve the problem. {i} (indeed it's formally neither a start of a paragraph nor necessarily its end) must also alleviate the problem. If they don't that means Lojban simply lacks enough means to handle conversations with precise tools to reference uttterances that appear asynchronously. {fa'o} as its definition says is not for humans .i le jbobau zo'u do cusku zo fa'o ca le nu do pu'o morsi Em sexta-feira, 14 de julho de 2017 15:26:48 UTC+3, gejyspa escreveu: > > .i is neither the beginning nor end. It is between sentences. It is > officially a "linker". If I hear you say "i" I will wait for you to say > your next utterance. OTOH, If you are really that worried about turn > taking, and do not want to really on silences that every single human > language (spoken or signed), using "mu'o do'u" will do it. > > --gejyspa > > > On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 1:34 AM, > wrote: > >> A vau is not the end, it can be followed by free elements that modify the >> preceding statement, >> and if there was a gihek, then vau can also be followed by tail-terms and >> even another gihe clause. >> Only I/NIhO is the real end. >> >> >> On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:03:30 AM UTC-7, aionys wrote: >>> >>> It's the beginning. vau is the end of a statement and can normally be >>> left out. >>> >>> Same for ni'o. >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 11:43 PM, wrote: >>> >>>> The question of whether "i" terminates a statement or begins one may >>>> not seem to make a lot of difference, >>>> but for me it determines whether I place the "i" at the end or >>>> beginning of a written line and determines when I pause in speech between >>>> statements. >>>> From the syntax rules, there seems to be no distinction, because "i" >>>> mainly serves as a statement separator, >>>> and at the beginning of an utterance as well as at the end the "i" is >>>> permitted but optional. >>>> >>>> The critical question for interpreting the "i" may be: what happens >>>> when there is a long pause between statements, or perhaps a speaker turn? >>>> At what point is the prior statement complete, ready to wrap and ship, >>>> fully committed? >>>> It is clear that no statement is complete until you have seen the "i" >>>> (or "niho"...), >>>> and if it hasn't emerged yet, we are still waiting to see how the >>>> statement may yet turn out. >>>> Most bridi do not have every sumti place filled, but even if all the >>>> places are filled and then a delay stretches on and on, >>>> you cannot tell whether there is still a "vau zoho" to come, or a "fau >>>> lo nu lo xarju ba vofli", or a "giha mi bebna". >>>> Until you hear the "i", you are just left hanging. >>>> >>>> That is why "i" terminates statements, and why I place it at the end of >>>> written lines, and before a spoken pause if I pause. >>>> >>>> Syntax like "i je bo" makes it seem like "i" may be starting this >>>> statement, but I think not. >>>> The "i" is terminating the previous statement, even if that statement >>>> is empty. >>>> "i i je bo fagri" and "i je bo fagri" are equally grammatical >>>> utterances, >>>> while "je bo fagri" is ungrammatical because "je" does not connect with >>>> anything on its LHS. >>>> >>>> This made me wonder whether "niho" and "nohi" should be treated the >>>> same as "i", and now I think not. >>>> First, even though people try to do it, you cannot say "... niho ba bo >>>> ...". >>>> The "jek/joik/stag BO" connects two statements together, and this does >>>> not work over a paragraph break. >>>> Separate paragraphs do not connect this way. >>>> >>>> Second, when you are finishing one statement, you often do not know >>>> whether the next statement is going to be in a new paragraph. >>>> You haven't decided what you will say next yet at that point. >>>> Only after the delay for thought in between statements might you newly >>>> realize: now I'm gonna turn to something different. >>>> And since it is different, it won't be connected to the previous >>>> statement logically or with a tag. >>>> >>>> That is why I now begin new paragraphs with the niho or nohi at the >>>> start of the written line, and after a possible spoken pause. >>>> The "i" that optionally terminates the prior statement may or may not >>>> be included just before the "niho". >>>> >>>> E.g. >>>> >>>> mi pu gleki lo nu penmi do i >>>> je bo mi terpa lo nu rinsa do i >>>> >>>> niho mi ba finti lo se cukta poi srana lo nu terpa i >>>> >>>> mihe bremenli >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "lojban" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> mu'o mi'e .aionys. >>> >>> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o >>> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com >> . >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_1225_1349445383.1500043659470 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
{vau mu'o do} and {vau vau mu'o do} must solve the= problem. {i} (indeed it's formally neither a start of a paragraph nor = necessarily its end) must also alleviate the problem. If they don't tha= t means Lojban simply lacks enough means to handle conversations with preci= se tools to reference uttterances that appear asynchronously.
{fa'o= } as its definition says is not for humans=C2=A0

.= i le jbobau zo'u do cusku zo fa'o ca le nu do pu'o morsi

Em sexta-feira, 14 de julho de 2017 15:26:48 UTC+3, gejyspa es= creveu:
.i is = neither the beginning nor end.=C2=A0 It is between sentences.=C2=A0 It is o= fficially a "linker".=C2=A0 If I hear you say "i" I wil= l wait for you to say your next utterance.=C2=A0 OTOH, =C2=A0If you are rea= lly that worried about turn taking, and do not want to really on silences t= hat every single human language (spoken or signed), using "mu'o do= 'u" will do it.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 --gejyspa

On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 1:34 AM, <vpbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
A vau is not the end, it can be followed by free ele= ments that modify the preceding statement,
and if there was a gihek, the= n vau can also be followed by tail-terms and even another gihe clause.
O= nly I/NIhO is the real end.


On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at = 10:03:30 AM UTC-7, aionys wrote:
It's the beginning. vau is the end of a= statement and can normally be left out.

Same for ni'o.

On Wed, Jul 12,= 2017 at 11:43 PM, <vpbr...@gmail= .com> wrote:
The question of whether "i" terminates a= statement or begins one may not seem to make a lot of difference,
but = for me it determines whether I place the "i" at the end or beginn= ing of a written line and determines when I pause in speech between stateme= nts.
From the syntax rules, there seems to be no distinction, because &q= uot;i" mainly serves as a statement separator,
and at the beginning= of an utterance as well as at the end the "i" is permitted but o= ptional.

The critical question for interpreting the "i" ma= y be:=C2=A0 what happens when there is a long pause between statements, or = perhaps a speaker turn?
At what point is the prior statement complete, r= eady to wrap and ship, fully committed?
It is clear that no statement is= complete until you have seen the "i" (or "niho"...), <= br>and if it hasn't emerged yet, we are still waiting to see how the st= atement may yet turn out.
Most bridi do not have every sumti place fille= d, but even if all the places are filled and then a delay stretches on and = on,
you cannot tell whether there is still a "vau zoho" to com= e, or a "fau lo nu lo xarju ba vofli", or a "giha mi bebna&q= uot;.
Until you hear the "i", you are just left hanging.
That is why "i" terminates statements, and why I place it at th= e end of written lines, and before a spoken pause if I pause.

Syntax= like "i je bo" makes it seem like "i" may be starting = this statement, but I think not.
The "i" is terminating the pr= evious statement, even if that statement is empty.
"i i je bo fagri= " and "i je bo fagri" are equally grammatical utterances,while "je bo fagri" is ungrammatical because "je" does= not connect with anything on its LHS.

This made me wonder whether &= quot;niho" and "nohi" should be treated the same as "i&= quot;, and now I think not.
First, even though people try to do it, you = cannot say "... niho ba bo ...".
The "jek/joik/stag BO&qu= ot; connects two statements together, and this does not work over a paragra= ph break.
Separate paragraphs do not connect this way.

Second, wh= en you are finishing one statement, you often do not know whether the next = statement is going to be in a new paragraph.
You haven't decided wha= t you will say next yet at that point.
Only after the delay for thought = in between statements might you newly realize: now I'm gonna turn to so= mething different.
And since it is different, it won't be connected = to the previous statement logically or with a tag.

That is why I now= begin new paragraphs with the niho or nohi at the start of the written lin= e, and after a possible spoken pause.
The "i" that optionally = terminates the prior statement may or may not be included just before the &= quot;niho".

E.g.

mi pu gleki lo nu penmi do i
je bo m= i terpa lo nu rinsa do i

niho mi ba finti lo se cukta poi srana lo n= u terpa i

mihe bremenli


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroup= s.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.go= ogle.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com= /d/optout.



-- =
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno = be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke= , I am your father. :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.goo= gle.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/= d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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