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Subject: Re: [lojban] Is "i" the end or the beginning of a statement? what
 about "niho"?
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From: Vincent Broman <vpbroman@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2017 13:32:59 -0700
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I'm not so much worried about turn-taking, which can be done with
vocatives or suprasegmentals, but rather about chunking.

If I write in lines, and the reader processes by lines instead of word
by word, then what should go on a single line so that the reader gets
complete thoughts? If his parser is not back to the top-level at the end
of the line, then he's left hanging, unfinished, waiting for those zohe
and pending terminators.

If someone speaks with pauses between thoughts, and someone listens to
the end of the thought before fully digesting it and formulating a
response (wow, what a concept!), then it is friendly and helpful for the
speaker to put his pauses at points where the listener knows the
statement is complete, wrapped, and shipped, so he can then parse,
understand, and react.
The place where everyone knows the statement is complete is after the
separator word, not before it.

mihe bremenli


On 07/14/2017 07:47 AM, gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com wrote:
> {vau mu'o do} and {vau vau mu'o do} must solve the problem. {i} (indeed
> it's formally neither a start of a paragraph nor necessarily its end)
> must also alleviate the problem. If they don't that means Lojban simply
> lacks enough means to handle conversations with precise tools to
> reference uttterances that appear asynchronously.
> {fa'o} as its definition says is not for humans 
> 
> .i le jbobau zo'u do cusku zo fa'o ca le nu do pu'o morsi
> 
> Em sexta-feira, 14 de julho de 2017 15:26:48 UTC+3, gejyspa escreveu:
> 
>     .i is neither the beginning nor end.  It is between sentences.  It
>     is officially a "linker".  If I hear you say "i" I will wait for you
>     to say your next utterance.  OTOH,  If you are really that worried
>     about turn taking, and do not want to really on silences that every
>     single human language (spoken or signed), using "mu'o do'u" will do it.
> 
>                       --gejyspa
> 
> 
>     On Fri, Jul 14, 2017 at 1:34 AM, <vpbr...@gmail.com <javascript:>>
>     wrote:
> 
>         A vau is not the end, it can be followed by free elements that
>         modify the preceding statement,
>         and if there was a gihek, then vau can also be followed by
>         tail-terms and even another gihe clause.
>         Only I/NIhO is the real end.
> 
> 
>         On Thursday, July 13, 2017 at 10:03:30 AM UTC-7, aionys wrote:
> 
>             It's the beginning. vau is the end of a statement and can
>             normally be left out.
> 
>             Same for ni'o.
> 
>             On Wed, Jul 12, 2017 at 11:43 PM, <vpbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>                 The question of whether "i" terminates a statement or
>                 begins one may not seem to make a lot of difference,
>                 but for me it determines whether I place the "i" at the
>                 end or beginning of a written line and determines when I
>                 pause in speech between statements.
>                 From the syntax rules, there seems to be no distinction,
>                 because "i" mainly serves as a statement separator,
>                 and at the beginning of an utterance as well as at the
>                 end the "i" is permitted but optional.
> 
>                 The critical question for interpreting the "i" may be: 
>                 what happens when there is a long pause between
>                 statements, or perhaps a speaker turn?
>                 At what point is the prior statement complete, ready to
>                 wrap and ship, fully committed?
>                 It is clear that no statement is complete until you have
>                 seen the "i" (or "niho"...),
>                 and if it hasn't emerged yet, we are still waiting to
>                 see how the statement may yet turn out.
>                 Most bridi do not have every sumti place filled, but
>                 even if all the places are filled and then a delay
>                 stretches on and on,
>                 you cannot tell whether there is still a "vau zoho" to
>                 come, or a "fau lo nu lo xarju ba vofli", or a "giha mi
>                 bebna".
>                 Until you hear the "i", you are just left hanging.
> 
>                 That is why "i" terminates statements, and why I place
>                 it at the end of written lines, and before a spoken
>                 pause if I pause.
> 
>                 Syntax like "i je bo" makes it seem like "i" may be
>                 starting this statement, but I think not.
>                 The "i" is terminating the previous statement, even if
>                 that statement is empty.
>                 "i i je bo fagri" and "i je bo fagri" are equally
>                 grammatical utterances,
>                 while "je bo fagri" is ungrammatical because "je" does
>                 not connect with anything on its LHS.
> 
>                 This made me wonder whether "niho" and "nohi" should be
>                 treated the same as "i", and now I think not.
>                 First, even though people try to do it, you cannot say
>                 "... niho ba bo ...".
>                 The "jek/joik/stag BO" connects two statements together,
>                 and this does not work over a paragraph break.
>                 Separate paragraphs do not connect this way.
> 
>                 Second, when you are finishing one statement, you often
>                 do not know whether the next statement is going to be in
>                 a new paragraph.
>                 You haven't decided what you will say next yet at that
>                 point.
>                 Only after the delay for thought in between statements
>                 might you newly realize: now I'm gonna turn to something
>                 different.
>                 And since it is different, it won't be connected to the
>                 previous statement logically or with a tag.
> 
>                 That is why I now begin new paragraphs with the niho or
>                 nohi at the start of the written line, and after a
>                 possible spoken pause.
>                 The "i" that optionally terminates the prior statement
>                 may or may not be included just before the "niho".
> 
>                 E.g.
> 
>                 mi pu gleki lo nu penmi do i
>                 je bo mi terpa lo nu rinsa do i
> 
>                 niho mi ba finti lo se cukta poi srana lo nu terpa i
> 
>                 mihe bremenli
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
>             -- 
>             mu'o mi'e .aionys.
> 
>             .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu
>             do zo'o
>             (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
> 
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