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Subject: Re: [lojban] rewrite rules
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From: Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com>
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Date: Tue, 8 Aug 2017 23:33:59 +0200
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Yes it's the same project, although the versions might be a little=20
different. The last modification on Gitorious seems to be from=20
2014-11-21. The Hackage version has been uploaded on 2015, so maybe it's=20
more recent. I'm not sure where is located the latest version of the=20
project.

=E2=80=94Ilmen.


On 08/08/2017 22:21, MorphemeAddict wrote:
> That gitorious site timed out for me. Is this one the same?
> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tersmu
>
> stevo
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&utm=
_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Dwebmail&utm_term=3Dicon>=20
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>
>
> On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 11:15 AM, Ilmen <ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com=20
> <mailto:ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     Good project. I suggest you put those in a public Google
>     spreadsheet, so people can add alternative definitions (or
>     suggestions of improvements) in additional columns. The expansions
>     of JOI available on the BPFK pages are absent from your list.
>
>     Ultimately you can express all that Lojban can express with a very
>     limited set of cmavo, but by using only those, utterances get
>     extremely verbose.
>
>     For example, {ro mlatu cu mabru gi'e se tuple vo da} can be
>     rephrased as:
>
>     {roldza fa lo ka zilkanxe fa lo du'u ce'u goi ko'a mabru ku lo
>     du'u li vo kaidza lo ka ce'u tuple ko'a}
>
>     which can be further impoverished in cmavo diversity by removing
>     those FA and expanding counting quantification (vo da / li vo
>     kaidza=E2=80=A6) using only existential quantification, but that'll m=
ake
>     thing even much more verbose.
>
>     Do you know of the Tersmu project (
>     https://gitorious.org/tersmu/tersmu/
>     <https://gitorious.org/tersmu/tersmu/> ), whose purpose is to
>     translate between Lojban and a logic notation? It's not a complete
>     project (many cmavo aren't yet handled properly) but it's already
>     pretty good. If you have access to the Lojban rooms on IRC,
>     Telegram, Slack or Discord, you can a Tersmu interface available
>     there to test it without installing anything.
>
>     =E2=80=94Ilmen.
>
>
>     On 08/08/2017 16:33, vpbroman@gmail.com
>     <mailto:vpbroman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>     Because of my minimalist preferences, I'm interested in seeing
>>     how small a subset of lojban would be capable of expressing the
>>     same things as the full language.
>>     If a hard word can be completely replaced by a rephrasing with
>>     easy words, then that word is useful for conciseness, but is
>>     otherwise dispensible.
>>     If you had rewrite rules to macro expand words in terms of other
>>     words, and if you ordered words from complex to simple and
>>     required that the words in the rewrite be simpler than the word
>>     being rewritten (to avoid self-referential loops) then you don't
>>     infinitely regress, you eventually expand everything to its
>>     simplest possible terms.
>>
>>     This is like the concept of Semantic Primes, which alludes to the
>>     prime factorization of numbers.
>>     As an inspiring example, Schemers point to how all computations
>>     can be expressed in terms of: lambda, recursion, if, quote, cons,
>>     car, cdr, and maybe a thing or two more -- I forget.
>>
>>     So, content words in lojban get defined in a dictionary in terms
>>     of other words.
>>     But I'm interested in how our function words are defined in terms
>>     of other words.
>>     Lots of examples are in CLL and the BPFK docs, such as this from
>>     xorlo.
>>
>>     lo broda ku =3D zohe noi keha broda kuho
>>
>>     I've collected all the rewrites that I could find (plus a handful
>>     I made up) and listed them in this rough draft document.
>>     cmavo_equiv.txt
>>     https://app.box.com/s/hjis4vnshj8tvnu2q2vg7hkcfh65fcyc
>>     <https://app.box.com/s/hjis4vnshj8tvnu2q2vg7hkcfh65fcyc>
>>
>>     Suggesting additions/corrections would be appreciated.
>>
>>     Many are inexact equivalents, for example BAI is defined in terms
>>     of fiho, even though BAI fits syntactically in a number of places
>>     where a fiho phrase is not allowed.
>>     Most of UI can be roughly equivalent to a sei-sehu phrase, at
>>     least when the UI appears at the start of the sentence, but
>>     sei-sehu doesn't seem to comment on anything more localized than
>>     the entire bridi. E.g.
>>
>>     ui =3D sei mi lo nu nei ca gleki sehu
>>
>>     Except ui can attach to individual words and indicate pleasure in
>>     them more specifically, not just in the whole statement.
>>     My rewrites for UI->sei are very rough and incomplete, but they
>>     are paired with lojban definitions from jbovlaste.
>>
>>     The prosumti and probridi seem harder to rewrite. I wonder
>>     whether the following would make sense.
>>
>>     mi =3D lo cusku be luhe nei
>>     do =3D lo te cusku be luhe nei
>>
>>     mihe bremenli
>>
>>     --=20
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>
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    <p>Yes it's the same project, although the versions might be a
      little different. The last modification on Gitorious seems to be
      from 2014-11-21. The Hackage version has been uploaded on 2015, so
      maybe it's more recent. I'm not sure where is located the latest
      version of the project.<br>
    </p>
    <p>=E2=80=94Ilmen.<br>
    </p>
    <br>
    <div class=3D"moz-cite-prefix">On 08/08/2017 22:21, MorphemeAddict
      wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type=3D"cite"
cite=3D"mid:CAHiXx=3DOvBk6Mt6idNU9+aTX0nPduS-gTow1S61oGe25rKEjWow@mail.gmai=
l.com">
      <div dir=3D"ltr">
        <div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"courier new, monospace">=
That
            gitorious site timed out for me. Is this one the same?=C2=A0</f=
ont><br>
          <font face=3D"courier new, monospace"><a
              href=3D"https://hackage.haskell.org/package/tersmu"
              moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://hackage.haskell.org/package/=
tersmu</a></font><br>
        </div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"courier new, monospace">=
<br>
          </font></div>
        <div class=3D"gmail_default"><font face=3D"courier new, monospace">=
stevo</font></div>
      </div>
      <div id=3D"DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br>
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      <div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>
        <div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 11:15 AM, Ilmen
          <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com"
              target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">ilmen.pokebip@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt;</span>
          wrote:<br>
          <blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0
            .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
            <div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF" text=3D"#000000">
              <p>Good project. I suggest you put those in a public
                Google spreadsheet, so people can add alternative
                definitions (or suggestions of improvements) in
                additional columns. The expansions of JOI available on
                the BPFK pages are absent from your list.</p>
              <p>Ultimately you can express all that Lojban can express
                with a very limited set of cmavo, but by using only
                those, utterances get extremely verbose.</p>
              <p>For example, {ro mlatu cu mabru gi'e se tuple vo da}
                can be rephrased as:</p>
              <p>{roldza fa lo ka zilkanxe fa lo du'u ce'u goi ko'a
                mabru ku lo du'u li vo kaidza lo ka ce'u tuple ko'a}</p>
              <p>which can be further impoverished in cmavo diversity by
                removing those FA and expanding counting quantification
                (vo da / li vo kaidza=E2=80=A6) using only existential
                quantification, but that'll make thing even much more
                verbose.</p>
              <p>Do you know of the Tersmu project ( <a
                  href=3D"https://gitorious.org/tersmu/tersmu/"
                  target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://gitori=
ous.org/tersmu/<wbr>tersmu/</a>
                ), whose purpose is to translate between Lojban and a
                logic notation? It's not a complete project (many cmavo
                aren't yet handled properly) but it's already pretty
                good. If you have access to the Lojban rooms on IRC,
                Telegram, Slack or Discord, you can a Tersmu interface
                available there to test it without installing anything.</p>
              <span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
                  <p>=E2=80=94Ilmen.<br>
                  </p>
                </font></span>
              <div>
                <div class=3D"h5"> <br>
                  <div class=3D"m_-4229217461205386469moz-cite-prefix">On
                    08/08/2017 16:33, <a
                      class=3D"m_-4229217461205386469moz-txt-link-abbreviat=
ed"
                      href=3D"mailto:vpbroman@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank"
                      moz-do-not-send=3D"true">vpbroman@gmail.com</a>
                    wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote type=3D"cite">
                    <div dir=3D"ltr">Because of my minimalist preferences,
                      I'm interested in seeing how small a subset of
                      lojban would be capable of expressing the same
                      things as the full language.<br>
                      If a hard word can be completely replaced by a
                      rephrasing with easy words, then that word is
                      useful for conciseness, but is otherwise
                      dispensible.<br>
                      If you had rewrite rules to macro expand words in
                      terms of other words, and if you ordered words
                      from complex to simple and required that the words
                      in the rewrite be simpler than the word being
                      rewritten (to avoid self-referential loops) then
                      you don't infinitely regress, you eventually
                      expand everything to its simplest possible terms.<br>
                      <br>
                      This is like the concept of Semantic Primes, which
                      alludes to the prime factorization of numbers.<br>
                      As an inspiring example, Schemers point to how all
                      computations can be expressed in terms of: lambda,
                      recursion, if, quote, cons, car, cdr, and maybe a
                      thing or two more -- I forget.<br>
                      <br>
                      So, content words in lojban get defined in a
                      dictionary in terms of other words.<br>
                      But I'm interested in how our function words are
                      defined in terms of other words.<br>
                      Lots of examples are in CLL and the BPFK docs,
                      such as this from xorlo.<br>
                      <br>
                      lo broda ku =3D zohe noi keha broda kuho<br>
                      <br>
                      I've collected all the rewrites that I could find
                      (plus a handful I made up) and listed them in this
                      rough draft document.<br>
                      cmavo_equiv.txt<br>
                      <a
                        class=3D"m_-4229217461205386469moz-txt-link-freetex=
t"
href=3D"https://app.box.com/s/hjis4vnshj8tvnu2q2vg7hkcfh65fcyc"
                        target=3D"_blank" moz-do-not-send=3D"true">https://=
app.box.com/s/<wbr>hjis4vnshj8tvnu2q2vg7hkcfh65fc<wbr>yc</a><br>
                      <br>
                      Suggesting additions/corrections would be
                      appreciated.<br>
                      <br>
                      Many are inexact equivalents, for example BAI is
                      defined in terms of fiho, even though BAI fits
                      syntactically in a number of places where a fiho
                      phrase is not allowed.<br>
                      Most of UI can be roughly equivalent to a sei-sehu
                      phrase, at least when the UI appears at the start
                      of the sentence, but sei-sehu doesn't seem to
                      comment on anything more localized than the entire
                      bridi. E.g.<br>
                      <br>
                      ui =3D sei mi lo nu nei ca gleki sehu<br>
                      <br>
                      Except ui can attach to individual words and
                      indicate pleasure in them more specifically, not
                      just in the whole statement.<br>
                      My rewrites for UI-&gt;sei are very rough and
                      incomplete, but they are paired with lojban
                      definitions from jbovlaste.<br>
                      <br>
                      The prosumti and probridi seem harder to rewrite.
                      I wonder whether the following would make sense.<br>
                      <br>
                      mi =3D lo cusku be luhe nei<br>
                      do =3D lo te cusku be luhe nei<br>
                      <br>
                      mihe bremenli<br>
                      <br>
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