Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 22:00:40 -0800 (PST)
From: sukender1@gmail.com
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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 <CAJHgu=8BCaGqRkrD66zEtFiPkbG77EZ1u5N3uEO-+1bT96p1ig@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
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doi la stela selckiku

You're absolutely right about saying that's an issue finding a "democratic"=
=20
way or such. I guess applying a "standard" democraty here isn't a good idea=
=20
of course ; it must be adapted to the situation.

My (rough) idea is that people making decisions about Lojban must, at=20
least, have significant knowledge of what they're talking about (This is=20
clearly not my case, as I'm not fluent!). But this group ("committee"?)=20
should accept the fact that language will evolve, whether they like it or=
=20
not. I guess this idea is already spread and accepted, but I'm not 100%=20
sure.

My (strictly personal) point of view is the same as yours : there are=20
practical reasons that make evolution unavoidable. Other people (ie.=20
"non-committee") should then be able to make proposals, run debates, and so=
=20
on.
So, paraphrasing, here are some rules suggestions (to be debated!):

   - What is "core" language has to be determined and be clearly stated.
   - Reintegration of proposals to the "core" should be reviewed, fixed,=20
   and adapted by a "core committee" (Which size? ~10 to 50 people?).
   - Being a member of such organization should be restricted to "meritant"=
=20
      people. Of course, "merit" needs to be defined (knowledge? previous w=
ork?=20
      fluency? all three?).
      - Voting may also be slightly weighted with "merit".
   - Proposals may be done by anyone. They may be "supported" by anyone=20
   (kind of "+1" vote), in order to put presure on the committee.
  =20
Is it *even possible* to get to that? It requires both willings and=20
structures...

As for the first point (define what is "core"), I must say I personally was=
=20
completely lost when I started studying. It is only because of answers in=
=20
this thread that I discovered why.
It felt like anything was a bit fuzzy... except for the (outdated?) CLL. So=
=20
I (naively) started with the CLL, which looked like "the" official=20
reference.

@gejyspa: Thanks for clarification. I'm sorry for you.

la .sukender.

Le dimanche 5 novembre 2017 22:04:27 UTC+1, la stela selckiku a =C3=A9crit =
:
>
> The main problem with coming to a democratic agreement about Lojban is,=
=20
> who should participate in that democracy? Lojban has a tiny number of=20
> fluent speakers, overwhelmed by a much larger community of non-speakers.=
=20
> Any sort of process whose participants were the community broadly would=
=20
> probably be inclined to reach decisions like, "We think it would be a goo=
d=20
> idea to just speak the way it says in the book and not change anything!"=
=20
> But from the perspective of people who actually speak Lojban, the book wa=
s=20
> just a theoretical proposal and there's practical reasons why it can't al=
l=20
> be implemented exactly as written.=20
>
> It's not actually a large enough community to form "dialects" in the=20
> ordinary sense. All of the fluent speakers understand one another. But=20
> because Lojban is more precisely defined than most languages, we can make=
=20
> formal distinctions between ways of speaking that in another language=20
> community would just be ignored as the incomprehensible complexities of=
=20
> language. If you make a change to English grammar, nobody necessarily eve=
n=20
> exactly understands how the change works, because no one understands how=
=20
> English works, because language. If you make a change to Lojban you can=
=20
> precisely document it and then you can have a special parser that=20
> understands that amended grammar. In other words being able to formalize=
=20
> the grammar makes changes more evident by making it easy to document them=
.=20
> The semantics of the base words has also been changing over the years, bu=
t=20
> because there's no formalization of those meanings you can't so easily te=
ll=20
> it's happening.=20
>
> On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 3:04 PM, <suke...@gmail.com <javascript:>> wrote:
>
>> Wow. This is even worse than I thought.
>>
>> One great thing about Lojban is that it is supposed to be unique. What I=
=20
>> read here is like if people said "Hey, I invented a Lojban-French", and=
=20
>> "Me, a Lojban-Chinese", and "Lojban-English"... That sounds so stupid.
>>
>> Let me be clear: I'm *NOT *judging anyone forking Lojban. Surely they=20
>> had good reasons to do so. Actually nobody can pretend forseeing any cas=
e,=20
>> and write an "immutable" language. So yes, it is obvious that the langua=
ge=20
>> evolves and will evolve, even an hypothetic "official an unique" Lojban.
>>
>> What is unfortunate is that all forking work should be reintegrated in=
=20
>> some way to the "trunk", or else we'll end up with many "Lojbans" wich w=
ill=20
>> actually kill Lojban (whatever version).
>>
>> I understand the lack of leadership, but it feels more like a lack of=20
>> structures for democraty. It would be nice to have such structures, but=
=20
>> unfortunately I don't know how this could be initiated. One idea would b=
e=20
>> to mimic software, a bit as OpenGL did, having the core, extensions, and=
=20
>> proposals.
>>
>>
>> <http://trac.openscenegraph.org/projects/osg/raw-attachment/wiki/Support=
/KnowledgeBase/OpenGL/OpenGL3Notes/OpenGL3DeprecationProcess.png>
>>
>>
>>
>> To be frank, I feel a bit betrayed. I feel bad because my hope was that=
=20
>> Lojban was more that just an experiment. Someone, please, prove me it is=
...
>>
>> --=20
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group=
s=20
>> "lojban" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a=
n=20
>> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>.
>> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com=20
>> <javascript:>.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>

--=20
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lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
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Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

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<div dir=3D"ltr">doi la stela selckiku<div><br></div><div>You&#39;re absolu=
tely right about saying that&#39;s an issue finding a &quot;democratic&quot=
; way or such. I guess applying a &quot;standard&quot; democraty here isn&#=
39;t a good idea of course ; it must be adapted to the situation.</div><div=
><br></div><div>My (rough) idea is that people making decisions about Lojba=
n must, at least,=C2=A0have significant knowledge of what they&#39;re talki=
ng about (This is clearly not my case, as I&#39;m not fluent!). But this gr=
oup (&quot;committee&quot;?) should accept the fact that language will evol=
ve, whether they like it or not. I guess this idea is already spread and ac=
cepted, but I&#39;m not 100% sure.</div><div><br></div><div>My (strictly pe=
rsonal) point of view is the same as yours : there are practical reasons th=
at make evolution unavoidable. Other people (ie. &quot;non-committee&quot;)=
 should then be able to make proposals, run debates, and so on.</div><div>S=
o, paraphrasing, here are some rules suggestions (to be debated!):</div><di=
v><ul><li>What is &quot;core&quot; language has to be determined and be cle=
arly stated.</li><li>Reintegration of proposals to the &quot;core&quot; sho=
uld be reviewed, fixed, and adapted by a &quot;core committee&quot; (Which =
size? ~10 to 50 people?).<br></li><ul><li>Being a member of such organizati=
on should be restricted to &quot;meritant&quot; people. Of course, &quot;me=
rit&quot; needs to be defined (knowledge? previous work? fluency? all three=
?).</li><li>Voting may also be slightly weighted with &quot;merit&quot;.</l=
i></ul><li>Proposals may be done by anyone. They may be &quot;supported&quo=
t; by anyone (kind of &quot;+1&quot; vote), in order to put presure on the =
committee.<br></li></ul></div><div>Is it <b>even possible</b> to get to tha=
t? It requires both willings and structures...</div><div><br></div><div>As =
for the first point (define what is &quot;core&quot;), I must say I persona=
lly was completely lost when I started studying. It is only because of answ=
ers in this thread that I discovered why.</div><div>It felt like anything w=
as a bit fuzzy... except for the (outdated?) CLL. So I (naively) started wi=
th the CLL, which looked like &quot;the&quot; official reference.</div><div=
><br></div><div>@gejyspa: Thanks for clarification. I&#39;m sorry for you.<=
/div><div><br></div><div>la .sukender.<br><br>Le dimanche 5 novembre 2017 2=
2:04:27 UTC+1, la stela selckiku a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc soli=
d;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">The main problem with coming to a de=
mocratic agreement about Lojban is, who should participate in that democrac=
y? Lojban has a tiny number of fluent speakers, overwhelmed by a much large=
r community of non-speakers. Any sort of process whose participants were th=
e community broadly would probably be inclined to reach decisions like, &qu=
ot;We think it would be a good idea to just speak the way it says in the bo=
ok and not change anything!&quot; But from the perspective of people who ac=
tually speak Lojban, the book was just a theoretical proposal and there&#39=
;s practical reasons why it can&#39;t all be implemented exactly as written=
.=C2=A0<div><br></div><div>It&#39;s not actually a large enough community t=
o form &quot;dialects&quot; in the ordinary sense. All of the fluent speake=
rs understand one another. But because Lojban is more precisely defined tha=
n most languages, we can make formal distinctions between ways of speaking =
that in another language community would just be ignored as the incomprehen=
sible complexities of language. If you make a change to English grammar, no=
body necessarily even exactly understands how the change works, because no =
one understands how English works, because language. If you make a change t=
o Lojban you can precisely document it and then you can have a special pars=
er that understands that amended grammar. In other words being able to form=
alize the grammar makes changes more evident by making it easy to document =
them. The semantics of the base words has also been changing over the years=
, but because there&#39;s no formalization of those meanings you can&#39;t =
so easily tell it&#39;s happening.=C2=A0</div></div><div><br><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 3:04 PM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"javascript:" target=3D"_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto=3D"Ijt-bTXRCQAJ" r=
el=3D"nofollow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return tru=
e;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;javascript:&#39;;return true;">suke...@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"m=
argin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"l=
tr"><div>Wow. This is even worse than I thought.</div><div><br></div><div>O=
ne great thing about Lojban is that it is supposed to be unique. What I rea=
d here is like if people said &quot;Hey, I invented a Lojban-French&quot;, =
and &quot;Me, a Lojban-Chinese&quot;, and &quot;Lojban-English&quot;... Tha=
t sounds so stupid.</div><div><br></div><div>Let me be clear: I&#39;m <b>NO=
T </b>judging anyone forking Lojban. Surely they had good reasons to do so.=
 Actually nobody can pretend forseeing any case, and write an &quot;immutab=
le&quot; language. So yes, it is obvious that the language evolves and will=
 evolve, even an hypothetic &quot;official an unique&quot; Lojban.</div><di=
v><br></div><div>What is unfortunate is that all forking work should be rei=
ntegrated in some way to the &quot;trunk&quot;, or else we&#39;ll end up wi=
th many &quot;Lojbans&quot; wich will actually kill Lojban (whatever versio=
n).</div><div><br></div><div>I understand the lack of leadership, but it fe=
els more like a lack of structures for democraty. It would be nice to have =
such structures, but unfortunately I don&#39;t know how this could be initi=
ated. One idea would be to mimic software, a bit as OpenGL did, having the =
core, extensions, and proposals.</div><p style=3D"text-align:center;clear:b=
oth"><a href=3D"http://trac.openscenegraph.org/projects/osg/raw-attachment/=
wiki/Support/KnowledgeBase/OpenGL/OpenGL3Notes/OpenGL3DeprecationProcess.pn=
g" style=3D"margin-left:1em;margin-right:1em" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"nofo=
llow" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3dhttp%3=
A%2F%2Ftrac.openscenegraph.org%2Fprojects%2Fosg%2Fraw-attachment%2Fwiki%2FS=
upport%2FKnowledgeBase%2FOpenGL%2FOpenGL3Notes%2FOpenGL3DeprecationProcess.=
png\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFGJMtDgBAWyB3fOtN3TKfPqZ2jNg=
9;;return true;" onclick=3D"this.href=3D&#39;http://www.google.com/url?q\x3=
dhttp%3A%2F%2Ftrac.openscenegraph.org%2Fprojects%2Fosg%2Fraw-attachment%2Fw=
iki%2FSupport%2FKnowledgeBase%2FOpenGL%2FOpenGL3Notes%2FOpenGL3DeprecationP=
rocess.png\x26sa\x3dD\x26sntz\x3d1\x26usg\x3dAFQjCNFGJMtDgBAWyB3fOtN3TKfPqZ=
2jNg&#39;;return true;"><img src=3D"https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/proxy=
/fBymK5CZVrYPuLZT6RtvsLLs4J8rFtRYpXA-q9Di2eRkX-pRm0yoIJrO6KwqlAOLtlOWs02D60=
pRv3p4SbJwGgfAZxrKl4BJCJ7WeimQyD6FUh-5PvDa1JnfO7tV1y8tniCEXodXZkzVBIxpdFQ4Y=
jzllX8yujXPwqaGSuko-_qsaal7gewx0QkbX6j02-MMNLl7l1rJ7FIoqaY=3Dw5000-h5000" b=
order=3D"0" width=3D"320" height=3D"216"></a></p><div><br></div><div><br></=
div><div><br></div><div>To be frank, I feel a bit betrayed. I feel bad beca=
use my hope was that Lojban was more that just an experiment. Someone, plea=
se, prove me it is...</div></div><div><div>

<p></p>

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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>
</blockquote></div></div>

<p></p>

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