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From: Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Nov 2017 23:39:15 -0700
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
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On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 11:00 PM, <sukender1@gmail.com> wrote:

> doi la stela selckiku
>
> You're absolutely right about saying that's an issue finding a
> "democratic" way or such. I guess applying a "standard" democraty here
> isn't a good idea of course ; it must be adapted to the situation.
>
> My (rough) idea is that people making decisions about Lojban must, at
> least, have significant knowledge of what they're talking about (This is
> clearly not my case, as I'm not fluent!). But this group ("committee"?)
> should accept the fact that language will evolve, whether they like it or
> not. I guess this idea is already spread and accepted, but I'm not 100%
> sure.
>
> My (strictly personal) point of view is the same as yours : there are
> practical reasons that make evolution unavoidable. Other people (ie.
> "non-committee") should then be able to make proposals, run debates, and so
> on.
> So, paraphrasing, here are some rules suggestions (to be debated!):
>
>    - What is "core" language has to be determined and be clearly stated.
>    - Reintegration of proposals to the "core" should be reviewed, fixed,
>    and adapted by a "core committee" (Which size? ~10 to 50 people?).
>    - Being a member of such organization should be restricted to
>       "meritant" people. Of course, "merit" needs to be defined (knowledge?
>       previous work? fluency? all three?).
>       - Voting may also be slightly weighted with "merit".
>    - Proposals may be done by anyone. They may be "supported" by anyone
>    (kind of "+1" vote), in order to put presure on the committee.
>
> Is it *even possible* to get to that? It requires both willings and
> structures...
>
> As for the first point (define what is "core"), I must say I personally
> was completely lost when I started studying. It is only because of answers
> in this thread that I discovered why.
> It felt like anything was a bit fuzzy... except for the (outdated?) CLL.
> So I (naively) started with the CLL, which looked like "the" official
> reference.
>
> @gejyspa: Thanks for clarification. I'm sorry for you.
>
> la .sukender.
>

That is literally what the BPFK is for. And CLL is the official Lojban,
notwithstanding the very few proposals that have been accepted since it's
publication.

The current CLL is mostly just an update to the original to make it easier
to publish and use modern technologies to make it easy to update, plus
fixing typographical and grammatical errors. (That's why it's called CLL
v1.1, IIRC.)

Eventually, the CLL will be updated to include the changes since first
publication, that project is known as CLL v2, and I'm certain Robin would
love help with working on that.

-- 
mu'o mi'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 11:00 PM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:sukender1@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">sukender1@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span=
> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bo=
rder-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">doi la stela se=
lckiku<div><br></div><div>You&#39;re absolutely right about saying that&#39=
;s an issue finding a &quot;democratic&quot; way or such. I guess applying =
a &quot;standard&quot; democraty here isn&#39;t a good idea of course ; it =
must be adapted to the situation.</div><div><br></div><div>My (rough) idea =
is that people making decisions about Lojban must, at least,=C2=A0have sign=
ificant knowledge of what they&#39;re talking about (This is clearly not my=
 case, as I&#39;m not fluent!). But this group (&quot;committee&quot;?) sho=
uld accept the fact that language will evolve, whether they like it or not.=
 I guess this idea is already spread and accepted, but I&#39;m not 100% sur=
e.</div><div><br></div><div>My (strictly personal) point of view is the sam=
e as yours : there are practical reasons that make evolution unavoidable. O=
ther people (ie. &quot;non-committee&quot;) should then be able to make pro=
posals, run debates, and so on.</div><div>So, paraphrasing, here are some r=
ules suggestions (to be debated!):</div><div><ul><li>What is &quot;core&quo=
t; language has to be determined and be clearly stated.</li><li>Reintegrati=
on of proposals to the &quot;core&quot; should be reviewed, fixed, and adap=
ted by a &quot;core committee&quot; (Which size? ~10 to 50 people?).<br></l=
i><ul><li>Being a member of such organization should be restricted to &quot=
;meritant&quot; people. Of course, &quot;merit&quot; needs to be defined (k=
nowledge? previous work? fluency? all three?).</li><li>Voting may also be s=
lightly weighted with &quot;merit&quot;.</li></ul><li>Proposals may be done=
 by anyone. They may be &quot;supported&quot; by anyone (kind of &quot;+1&q=
uot; vote), in order to put presure on the committee.<br></li></ul></div><d=
iv>Is it <b>even possible</b> to get to that? It requires both willings and=
 structures...</div><div><br></div><div>As for the first point (define what=
 is &quot;core&quot;), I must say I personally was completely lost when I s=
tarted studying. It is only because of answers in this thread that I discov=
ered why.</div><div>It felt like anything was a bit fuzzy... except for the=
 (outdated?) CLL. So I (naively) started with the CLL, which looked like &q=
uot;the&quot; official reference.</div><div><br></div><div>@gejyspa: Thanks=
 for clarification. I&#39;m sorry for you.</div><div><br></div><div>la .suk=
ender.<span class=3D""><br></span></div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra">That is literally what the BPFK is for. And CLL =
is the official Lojban, notwithstanding the very few proposals that have be=
en accepted since it&#39;s publication.</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br=
></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">The current CLL is mostly just an update =
to the original to make it easier to publish and use modern technologies to=
 make it easy to update, plus fixing typographical and grammatical errors. =
(That&#39;s why it&#39;s called CLL v1.1, IIRC.)</div><div class=3D"gmail_e=
xtra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">Eventually, the CLL will be upda=
ted to include the changes since first publication, that project is known a=
s CLL v2, and I&#39;m certain Robin would love help with working on that.<b=
r clear=3D"all"></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br>-- <br><div class=3D"g=
mail_signature" data-smartmail=3D"gmail_signature">mu&#39;o mi&#39;e .aiony=
s.<br><br>.i.e&#39;ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu =
do zo&#39;o<br>(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<br></div=
>
</div></div>

<p></p>

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