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From: MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 08:25:07 -0600
Message-ID: <CAHiXx=MRH8_+nRY38EG7bkaaHmOXHSWs8RtHmMGRzXVqBLLYpA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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sykynder: Your examples of names of Lojban dialects lead me to think that
you think the so-called dialects of Lojban are based on adaptations to
specific natlangs. Based on my years of minor involvement with Lojban, the
differences all have to do with better (pick your own definition if you
want) and more consistent implementation of logic, pragmatics, and meaning,
never on what natlangs do.

stevo

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On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 7:56 AM, <sukender1@gmail.com> wrote:

> [*side note: I'll answer {la guskant} when I will have read the answer
> and links ;-)* ]
>
> Thank you for that historical answer, Gleki.
> Yes, I perfectly understand the huge damage it can cause.
>
> Nevertheless, I also understand why this may arise: I *never *saw a set
> of rules accepted by 100% of people!
>
>    - Laws? There are plenty of debates. Countries have different ones.
>    People disagree on many, but also often agree on *core* ones.
>    - Coding style rules? There are as many guidelines as coders! However,
>    enforcing the whole developer team to use them makes teamwork more
>    effective. They're like a common *language*.
>    - Language rules? Phew! Everyone knows someone who has his/her "very
>    own" way to spell words, or organize sentences...
>
> For the sake of Lojban's survival and spreading (and despite my very shor=
t
> history on that language), I think all must agree on some *unique*
> version, *and* accept the debate to make it evolve, *and* accept that not
> all proposals will fit in, *and* that reintegration of proposals may take
> months or years.
> Said otherwise, we must all "agree to disagree", may I say...
>
> By the way, your answer makes me think about software distributions. Do w=
e
> want our future GNU-Linux / Android / iOS / Windows / BSD / whatever
> contain a lot of "jbo_*" (imagine "jbo_FR", "jbo_EN", "jbo_CA"...), or ju=
st
> a unique "jbo" language?
> Unicity of Lojban is, IMHO, vital. I personally would just drop learning
> Lojban if I had no hope of that.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> la .sykyndyr.
>
>
>
>
> Le lundi 6 novembre 2017 14:10:44 UTC+1, Gleki Arxokuna a =C3=A9crit :
>>
>> This is a long standing issue. As shanoxilt once correctly noted Lojban
>> was hijacked by a clique of so called fluent speakers.
>> They started forking never completing any printed documentation of they
>> were doing. Firs they change the meaning of the particle {lo}, then trie=
d
>> to implement other changes including even the formal grammar.
>>
>> When people try to speak to fluent speakers they are immediately faced
>> with these discprepancies between The Complete Lojban Language book and
>> views of particular people. You can imagine all the negative consequence=
s
>> of this situation.
>>
>> But in spite of deterioration of Lojban community and its inability to
>> produce any fruitful results still Lojban is pretty much how The Complet=
e
>> Lojban Language describes it.
>> E.g. learning a revised meaning {lo} is no big deal.
>>
> --
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> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace">sykynder: Your examples of names of Lojban dialects lead me =
to think that you think the so-called dialects of Lojban are based on adapt=
ations to specific natlangs. Based on my years of minor involvement with Lo=
jban, the differences all have to do with better (pick your own definition =
if you want) and more consistent implementation of logic, pragmatics, and m=
eaning, never on what natlangs do.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_d=
efault" style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">stevo</div></div><div i=
d=3D"DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br>
<table style=3D"border-top:1px solid #d3d4de">
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k"><img src=3D"https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-rou=
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yle=3D"width: 46px; height: 29px;"></a></td>
		<td style=3D"width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:#41424e;font-size:13px;fo=
nt-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">Virus-free. <a href=
=3D"https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dlin=
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</table><a href=3D"#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width=3D"1" heigh=
t=3D"1"></a></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
>On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 7:56 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:s=
ukender1@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">sukender1@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>[<i>side note:=
 I&#39;ll answer {la guskant} when I will have read the answer and links ;-=
)</i>=C2=A0]</div><div><br></div><div>Thank you for that historical answer,=
 Gleki.</div><div>Yes, I perfectly understand the huge damage it can cause.=
</div><div><br></div><div>Nevertheless, I also understand why this may aris=
e: I <b>never </b>saw a set of rules accepted by 100% of people!</div><div>=
<div><ul><li>Laws? There are plenty of debates. Countries have different on=
es. People disagree on many, but also often agree on <b>core</b> ones.<br><=
/li><li>Coding style rules? There are as many guidelines as coders! However=
, enforcing the whole developer team to use them makes teamwork more effect=
ive. They&#39;re like a common <b>language</b>.<br></li><li>Language rules?=
 Phew! Everyone knows someone who has his/her &quot;very own&quot; way to s=
pell words, or organize sentences...<br></li></ul></div><div>For the sake o=
f Lojban&#39;s survival and spreading (and despite my very short history on=
 that language), I think all=C2=A0must agree on some <b>unique</b> version,=
=C2=A0<b>and</b> accept the debate to make it evolve, <b>and</b> accept tha=
t not all proposals will fit in, <b>and</b> that reintegration of proposals=
 may take months or years.<br></div><div>Said otherwise, we must all &quot;=
agree to disagree&quot;, may I say...</div><div><br></div><div>By the way, =
your answer makes me think about software distributions. Do we want our fut=
ure GNU-Linux / Android / iOS / Windows / BSD / whatever contain a lot of &=
quot;jbo_*&quot; (imagine &quot;jbo_FR&quot;, &quot;jbo_EN&quot;, &quot;jbo=
_CA&quot;...), or just a unique &quot;jbo&quot; language?</div><div>Unicity=
 of Lojban is, IMHO, vital. I personally would just drop learning Lojban if=
 I had no hope of that.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks again.</div><=
div><br></div><div><div>la .sykyndyr.</div></div><span class=3D""><div><br>=
</div><div><br></div><br><br>Le lundi 6 novembre 2017 14:10:44 UTC+1, Gleki=
 Arxokuna a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div>This is a long standing issue. As shanoxilt once correctly =
noted Lojban was hijacked by a clique of so called fluent speakers.</div><d=
iv>They started forking never completing any printed documentation of they =
were doing. Firs they change the meaning of the particle {lo}, then tried t=
o implement other changes including even the formal grammar.</div><div><br>=
</div><div>When people try to speak to fluent speakers they are immediately=
 faced with these discprepancies between The Complete Lojban Language book =
and views of particular people. You can imagine all the negative consequenc=
es of this situation.</div><div><br></div><div>But in spite of deterioratio=
n of Lojban community and its inability to produce any fruitful results sti=
ll Lojban is pretty much how The Complete Lojban Language describes it.</di=
v><div>E.g. learning a revised meaning {lo} is no big deal.</div></div></bl=
ockquote></span></div>

<p></p>

-- <br><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">
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</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

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