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From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 18:00:58 +0300
Message-ID: <CAO7bV+j_FAk-Gw5TWVxTP7G+oAQ45nRj6YQ0puCCuwNaUunEhg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
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Em segunda-feira, 6 de novembro de 2017, <sukender1@gmail.com> escreveu:

> [*side note: I'll answer {la guskant} when I will have read the answer
> and links ;-)* ]
>
> Thank you for that historical answer, Gleki.
> Yes, I perfectly understand the huge damage it can cause.
>
> Nevertheless, I also understand why this may arise: I *never *saw a set
> of rules accepted by 100% of people!
>
>    - Laws? There are plenty of debates. Countries have different ones.
>    People disagree on many, but also often agree on *core* ones.
>    - Coding style rules? There are as many guidelines as coders! However,
>    enforcing the whole developer team to use them makes teamwork more
>    effective. They're like a common *language*.
>    - Language rules? Phew! Everyone knows someone who has his/her "very
>    own" way to spell words, or organize sentences...
>
> For the sake of Lojban's survival and spreading (and despite my very shor=
t
> history on that language), I think all must agree on some *unique*
> version, *and* accept the debate to make it evolve, *and* accept that not
> all proposals will fit in, *and* that reintegration of proposals may take
> months or years.
>

As you can see this is unlikely to happen since people like to fork but...

you have CLL. It contains all the rules needed and makes the language
functional.

If you read it all and say "I want to speak something else " that's okay.
For now there is no document like this book in the amount of information
introduced for a speakable logical language.

Lojban is not in someone's head. It's been put on paper.


> Said otherwise, we must all "agree to disagree", may I say...
>
> By the way, your answer makes me think about software distributions. Do w=
e
> want our future GNU-Linux / Android / iOS / Windows / BSD / whatever
> contain a lot of "jbo_*" (imagine "jbo_FR", "jbo_EN", "jbo_CA"...), or ju=
st
> a unique "jbo" language?
> Unicity of Lojban is, IMHO, vital. I personally would just drop learning
> Lojban if I had no hope of that.
>
> Thanks again.
>
> la .sykyndyr.
>
>
>
>
> Le lundi 6 novembre 2017 14:10:44 UTC+1, Gleki Arxokuna a =C3=A9crit :
>>
>> This is a long standing issue. As shanoxilt once correctly noted Lojban
>> was hijacked by a clique of so called fluent speakers.
>> They started forking never completing any printed documentation of they
>> were doing. Firs they change the meaning of the particle {lo}, then trie=
d
>> to implement other changes including even the formal grammar.
>>
>> When people try to speak to fluent speakers they are immediately faced
>> with these discprepancies between The Complete Lojban Language book and
>> views of particular people. You can imagine all the negative consequence=
s
>> of this situation.
>>
>> But in spite of deterioration of Lojban community and its inability to
>> produce any fruitful results still Lojban is pretty much how The Complet=
e
>> Lojban Language describes it.
>> E.g. learning a revised meaning {lo} is no big deal.
>>
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<br><br>Em segunda-feira, 6 de novembro de 2017,  &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:suk=
ender1@gmail.com">sukender1@gmail.com</a>&gt; escreveu:<br><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>[<i>side note: I&#39;ll answer {la gus=
kant} when I will have read the answer and links ;-)</i>=C2=A0]</div><div><=
br></div><div>Thank you for that historical answer, Gleki.</div><div>Yes, I=
 perfectly understand the huge damage it can cause.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>Nevertheless, I also understand why this may arise: I <b>never </b>saw a =
set of rules accepted by 100% of people!</div><div><div><ul><li>Laws? There=
 are plenty of debates. Countries have different ones. People disagree on m=
any, but also often agree on <b>core</b> ones.<br></li><li>Coding style rul=
es? There are as many guidelines as coders! However, enforcing the whole de=
veloper team to use them makes teamwork more effective. They&#39;re like a =
common <b>language</b>.<br></li><li>Language rules? Phew! Everyone knows so=
meone who has his/her &quot;very own&quot; way to spell words, or organize =
sentences...<br></li></ul></div><div>For the sake of Lojban&#39;s survival =
and spreading (and despite my very short history on that language), I think=
 all=C2=A0must agree on some <b>unique</b> version,=C2=A0<b>and</b> accept =
the debate to make it evolve, <b>and</b> accept that not all proposals will=
 fit in, <b>and</b> that reintegration of proposals may take months or year=
s.<br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>As you can see thi=
s is unlikely to happen since people like to fork but...</div><div><br></di=
v><div>you have CLL. It contains all the rules needed and makes the languag=
e functional.</div><div><br></div><div>If you read it all and say &quot;I w=
ant to speak something else &quot; that&#39;s okay. For now there is no doc=
ument like this book in the amount of information introduced for a speakabl=
e logical language.</div><div><br></div><div>Lojban is not in someone&#39;s=
 head. It&#39;s been put on paper.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Said otherwise, we must all &quot;=
agree to disagree&quot;, may I say...</div><div><br></div><div>By the way, =
your answer makes me think about software distributions. Do we want our fut=
ure GNU-Linux / Android / iOS / Windows / BSD / whatever contain a lot of &=
quot;jbo_*&quot; (imagine &quot;jbo_FR&quot;, &quot;jbo_EN&quot;, &quot;jbo=
_CA&quot;...), or just a unique &quot;jbo&quot; language?</div><div>Unicity=
 of Lojban is, IMHO, vital. I personally would just drop learning Lojban if=
 I had no hope of that.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Thanks again.</div><=
div><br></div><div><div>la .sykyndyr.</div></div><div><br></div><div><br></=
div><br><br>Le lundi 6 novembre 2017 14:10:44 UTC+1, Gleki Arxokuna a =C3=
=A9crit=C2=A0:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-le=
ft:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div=
>This is a long standing issue. As shanoxilt once correctly noted Lojban wa=
s hijacked by a clique of so called fluent speakers.</div><div>They started=
 forking never completing any printed documentation of they were doing. Fir=
s they change the meaning of the particle {lo}, then tried to implement oth=
er changes including even the formal grammar.</div><div><br></div><div>When=
 people try to speak to fluent speakers they are immediately faced with the=
se discprepancies between The Complete Lojban Language book and views of pa=
rticular people. You can imagine all the negative consequences of this situ=
ation.</div><div><br></div><div>But in spite of deterioration of Lojban com=
munity and its inability to produce any fruitful results still Lojban is pr=
etty much how The Complete Lojban Language describes it.</div><div>E.g. lea=
rning a revised meaning {lo} is no big deal.</div></div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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</blockquote>

<p></p>

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