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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 17:57:02 +0000 (UTC)
From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
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 "Lojban: the language where no one ever knows whether what he says is gram=
matical, and,if it is, whether it means what he intended." is apparently ev=
en more true now than it was nearly 30 years ago when it was first proposed=
. Even monoparsing, basically the only reason for Lojban's existence, is mo=
re in doubt now than it was even back in the early days of CLL (well, getti=
ng the right parse, at least; getting a unique one is easy). All the Baroqu=
e excrescences on the simple system JCB tossed away 60+ years ago seem to h=
ave done the opposite of helping. =C2=A0And clearly learning Lojban has not=
 helped to make people more rational or logical or even sensible.
pycyn=C2=A0
    On Monday, November 6, 2017, 9:01:04 AM CST, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.m=
y.name@gmail.com> wrote: =20
=20
=20

Em segunda-feira, 6 de novembro de 2017, <sukender1@gmail.com> escreveu:

[side note: I'll answer {la guskant} when I will have read the answer and l=
inks ;-)=C2=A0]
Thank you for that historical answer, Gleki.Yes, I perfectly understand the=
 huge damage it can cause.
Nevertheless, I also understand why this may arise: I never saw a set of ru=
les accepted by 100% of people!  =20
   - Laws? There are plenty of debates. Countries have different ones. Peop=
le disagree on many, but also often agree on core ones.  =20

   - Coding style rules? There are as many guidelines as coders! However, e=
nforcing the whole developer team to use them makes teamwork more effective=
. They're like a common language.  =20

   - Language rules? Phew! Everyone knows someone who has his/her "very own=
" way to spell words, or organize sentences...  =20

For the sake of Lojban's survival and spreading (and despite my very short =
history on that language), I think all=C2=A0must agree on some unique versi=
on,=C2=A0and accept the debate to make it evolve, and accept that not all p=
roposals will fit in, and that reintegration of proposals may take months o=
r years.


As you can see this is unlikely to happen since people like to fork but...
you have CLL. It contains all the rules needed and makes the language funct=
ional.
If you read it all and say "I want to speak something else " that's okay. F=
or now there is no document like this book in the amount of information int=
roduced for a speakable logical language.
Lojban is not in someone's head. It's been put on paper.=C2=A0
Said otherwise, we must all "agree to disagree", may I say...
By the way, your answer makes me think about software distributions. Do we =
want our future GNU-Linux / Android / iOS / Windows / BSD / whatever contai=
n a lot of "jbo_*" (imagine "jbo_FR", "jbo_EN", "jbo_CA"...), or just a uni=
que "jbo" language?Unicity of Lojban is, IMHO, vital. I personally would ju=
st drop learning Lojban if I had no hope of that.
Thanks again.
la .sykyndyr.


Le lundi 6 novembre 2017 14:10:44 UTC+1, Gleki Arxokuna a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
This is a long standing issue. As shanoxilt once correctly noted Lojban was=
 hijacked by a clique of so called fluent speakers.They started forking nev=
er completing any printed documentation of they were doing. Firs they chang=
e the meaning of the particle {lo}, then tried to implement other changes i=
ncluding even the formal grammar.
When people try to speak to fluent speakers they are immediately faced with=
 these discprepancies between The Complete Lojban Language book and views o=
f particular people. You can imagine all the negative consequences of this =
situation.
But in spite of deterioration of Lojban community and its inability to prod=
uce any fruitful results still Lojban is pretty much how The Complete Lojba=
n Language describes it.E.g. learning a revised meaning {lo} is no big deal=
.


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 =20

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<html><head></head><body><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetic=
a, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div></div>
            <div>"Lojban: the language where no one ever knows whether what=
 he says is grammatical, and,if it is, whether it means what he intended." =
is apparently even more true now than it was nearly 30 years ago when it wa=
s first proposed. Even monoparsing, basically the only reason for Lojban's =
existence, is more in doubt now than it was even back in the early days of =
CLL (well, getting the right parse, at least; getting a unique one is easy)=
. All the Baroque excrescences on the simple system JCB tossed away 60+ yea=
rs ago seem to have done the opposite of helping. &nbsp;And clearly learnin=
g Lojban has not helped to make people more rational or logical or even sen=
sible.</div><div><br></div><div>pycyn</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><br></div>
           =20
            <div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_0049838143" class=3D"yahoo_quoted">
                <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Aria=
l, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
                   =20
                    <div>
                        On Monday, November 6, 2017, 9:01:04 AM CST, Gleki =
Arxokuna &lt;gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
                    </div>
                    <div><br></div>
                    <div><br></div>
                    <div><div id=3D"yiv7686352459"><div><br clear=3D"none">=
<br clear=3D"none">Em segunda-feira, 6 de novembro de 2017,  &lt;<a rel=3D"=
nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:sukender1@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank" href=3D"mailto:sukender1@gmail.com">sukender1@gmail.com</a>&gt; escr=
eveu:<br clear=3D"none"><blockquote class=3D"yiv7686352459gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><div>[<i>side note: I'll answer {la guskant} when I will have re=
ad the answer and links ;-)</i>&nbsp;]</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><=
div>Thank you for that historical answer, Gleki.</div><div>Yes, I perfectly=
 understand the huge damage it can cause.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></di=
v><div>Nevertheless, I also understand why this may arise: I <b>never </b>s=
aw a set of rules accepted by 100% of people!</div><div><div><ul><li>Laws? =
There are plenty of debates. Countries have different ones. People disagree=
 on many, but also often agree on <b>core</b> ones.<br clear=3D"none"></li>=
<li>Coding style rules? There are as many guidelines as coders! However, en=
forcing the whole developer team to use them makes teamwork more effective.=
 They're like a common <b>language</b>.<br clear=3D"none"></li><li>Language=
 rules? Phew! Everyone knows someone who has his/her "very own" way to spel=
l words, or organize sentences...<br clear=3D"none"></li></ul></div><div>Fo=
r the sake of Lojban's survival and spreading (and despite my very short hi=
story on that language), I think all&nbsp;must agree on some <b>unique</b> =
version,&nbsp;<b>and</b> accept the debate to make it evolve, <b>and</b> ac=
cept that not all proposals will fit in, <b>and</b> that reintegration of p=
roposals may take months or years.<br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div></bl=
ockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>As you can see this is unlikely=
 to happen since people like to fork but...</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></=
div><div>you have CLL. It contains all the rules needed and makes the langu=
age functional.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>If you read it all =
and say "I want to speak something else " that's okay. For now there is no =
document like this book in the amount of information introduced for a speak=
able logical language.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Lojban is no=
t in someone's head. It's been put on paper.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"yiv7686352459gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><div>Said otherw=
ise, we must all "agree to disagree", may I say...</div><div><br clear=3D"n=
one"></div><div>By the way, your answer makes me think about software distr=
ibutions. Do we want our future GNU-Linux / Android / iOS / Windows / BSD /=
 whatever contain a lot of "jbo_*" (imagine "jbo_FR", "jbo_EN", "jbo_CA"...=
), or just a unique "jbo" language?</div><div>Unicity of Lojban is, IMHO, v=
ital. I personally would just drop learning Lojban if I had no hope of that=
.</div></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Thanks again.</div><div><br=
 clear=3D"none"></div><div><div>la .sykyndyr.</div></div><div><br clear=3D"=
none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"n=
one">Le lundi 6 novembre 2017 14:10:44 UTC+1, Gleki Arxokuna a =C3=A9crit&n=
bsp;:<blockquote class=3D"yiv7686352459gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margi=
n-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div>This is a long standing issue. As shanoxilt once correctly noted Lojb=
an was hijacked by a clique of so called fluent speakers.</div><div>They st=
arted forking never completing any printed documentation of they were doing=
. Firs they change the meaning of the particle {lo}, then tried to implemen=
t other changes including even the formal grammar.</div><div><br clear=3D"n=
one"></div><div>When people try to speak to fluent speakers they are immedi=
ately faced with these discprepancies between The Complete Lojban Language =
book and views of particular people. You can imagine all the negative conse=
quences of this situation.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>But in s=
pite of deterioration of Lojban community and its inability to produce any =
fruitful results still Lojban is pretty much how The Complete Lojban Langua=
ge describes it.</div><div>E.g. learning a revised meaning {lo} is no big d=
eal.</div></div></blockquote></div>

<p></p>

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fd00067"><br clear=3D"none">
</div></blockquote><div class=3D"yiv7686352459yqt3243952760" id=3D"yiv76863=
52459yqtfd33876">

<p></p>

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