Received: from mail-ua0-f187.google.com ([209.85.217.187]:54011) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eBwpi-0000le-4J for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 06 Nov 2017 21:53:59 -0800 Received: by mail-ua0-f187.google.com with SMTP id 90sf105669uac.12 for ; Mon, 06 Nov 2017 21:53:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=Qcw3tr9F8fFLJQsOnUr/ggVCc5kTqe0IkBvaLrqtZeU=; b=FuPq7zi2o5y3Cq36iIVbLHJaYg46NXnfQSm/CDhOYCp6bdFi/Q9B8YpQAS2H9CnYy3 eR5ZZSxABZ7aImlpZ1CF/GUwUvvw8Vk8o+E14lFVjM6yI/WagQWT4fZpsbOQLhxs3IYV 88ZRUg79wShFJ8d0m+piJYkftpO7SkKpWLO1V8seXJcx5RBgT7ZvoNVbgE6JPPsH65Vy Usr2aBKdZAMFGnv9F4eaDP/3nSVw9sM6lM8N/gNY/KivOIOktTE+RTv50mkqxxfxrCSS opMg329Tm0fHX38mOzifDvWzlYa0wpdlqehRoJT46+8pEPbkKF4GrtocZYxA5DPtEZ/U zsOA== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=Qcw3tr9F8fFLJQsOnUr/ggVCc5kTqe0IkBvaLrqtZeU=; b=j60MLXEYeGVMjNA4c1OnPbfpM3hyF2BtlT4Dy7/evr0SBkKiVnQvQfBizhYEsAPh97 QLYiJg3MWm3LiB2ZGOkZkmJZ6QX3GWo667Y26dx8VkURhJ84J4FMuxPsKBYrQutmIs/t PjJjHYdZY3ZzPwLv59WCF0jyA2uzeHBp9/sV3mtIbyL6GvRbpllh6KTqz1spcCbEO3OC DQFDcDT7pNwfw+b22LYq/t/aMCh3w2UwZs6/gr1rWbWE4QvHgZUUC5OH4wMP7jzee3n9 0UO/X8TpZWA+YmeOHY24XIh4mu80mOqU23sCyJfmMaSM5IEtOLDSVPCrzL35FLdID6Rc 63nw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=Qcw3tr9F8fFLJQsOnUr/ggVCc5kTqe0IkBvaLrqtZeU=; b=WF9sxTR9KOunbRVTg1CbYLhFDq2nNZmHaU8xKvSE7r9ZWfjzOQ68n82NNS2FGpnAOR 1mbqkMoiaU4mLF5cVX/6Ki4HveYk12IRCaBgKvAlBejhQSj8iGO88UFnJ/RVvMFi61XJ 1NmUy+GGfCF+dXB7cc0IJA4GZWvJwcxltQWbIftyKe+04AxLlp9qdN3ClIbsC+s1R5si rd9tFsLHCFUBEJQzvD1n/IOl9yEV4RW1SiOw6SUleS9huB2YqPblTOD+/y+Bxkp/TO/u vAg9Wgtb+HvPWzrlx8BjVuI+pzr+097kFA7Lc5+ekL2ueDPz46TlhZ0r7JZAOwYyyyqh i2fg== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaWfMjb0Cxx6Xea6xI3nw8Hb6SMSIiDR5lEZOR7/unKO6VkHL+31 2Q5J4LETe1wKXuOxJpQIiOA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+RFVO0mSO+PB87hFKoXau+nW57q5qwIHlQfdvPXO3ePguHzeDJp1AXcSBsPe572Fycq1bCZQQ== X-Received: by 10.31.168.133 with SMTP id r127mr1489155vke.8.1510034031432; Mon, 06 Nov 2017 21:53:51 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.159.50.104 with SMTP id y37ls4619406uad.10.gmail; Mon, 06 Nov 2017 21:53:51 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.31.32.204 with SMTP id g195mr1489668vkg.10.1510034030729; Mon, 06 Nov 2017 21:53:50 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 6 Nov 2017 21:53:50 -0800 (PST) From: sukender1@gmail.com To: lojban Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <03cb7058-3183-4b01-96f6-6a58ea2286e4@googlegroups.com> <3a342986-92d1-47e1-a9fe-5f2acb7b3942@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_14473_422473928.1510034030567" X-Original-Sender: sukender1@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_14473_422473928.1510034030567 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_14474_1016433722.1510034030568" ------=_Part_14474_1016433722.1510034030568 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable doi la stevo Sure, you're right, but this was only because I was not sure people would= =20 understand my idea with "jbo_AA", "jbo_XX", "jbo_WATEVER" :-) Thanks for adding the precision. la .sykynder. Le lundi 6 novembre 2017 15:25:40 UTC+1, stevo a =C3=A9crit : > > sykynder: Your examples of names of Lojban dialects lead me to think that= =20 > you think the so-called dialects of Lojban are based on adaptations to=20 > specific natlangs. Based on my years of minor involvement with Lojban, th= e=20 > differences all have to do with better (pick your own definition if you= =20 > want) and more consistent implementation of logic, pragmatics, and meanin= g,=20 > never on what natlangs do.=20 > > stevo > > > Virus-free.=20 > www.avast.com=20 > =20 > <#CAHiXx=3DMRH8_+nRY38EG7bkaaHmOXHSWs8RtHmMGRzXVqBLLYpA@mail.gmail.com_DA= B4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2> > > On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 7:56 AM, > wrote: > >> [*side note: I'll answer {la guskant} when I will have read the answer= =20 >> and links ;-)* ] >> >> Thank you for that historical answer, Gleki. >> Yes, I perfectly understand the huge damage it can cause. >> >> Nevertheless, I also understand why this may arise: I *never *saw a set= =20 >> of rules accepted by 100% of people! >> >> - Laws? There are plenty of debates. Countries have different ones.= =20 >> People disagree on many, but also often agree on *core* ones. >> - Coding style rules? There are as many guidelines as coders!=20 >> However, enforcing the whole developer team to use them makes teamwor= k more=20 >> effective. They're like a common *language*. >> - Language rules? Phew! Everyone knows someone who has his/her "very= =20 >> own" way to spell words, or organize sentences... >> =20 >> For the sake of Lojban's survival and spreading (and despite my very=20 >> short history on that language), I think all must agree on some *unique*= =20 >> version, *and* accept the debate to make it evolve, *and* accept that=20 >> not all proposals will fit in, *and* that reintegration of proposals may= =20 >> take months or years. >> Said otherwise, we must all "agree to disagree", may I say... >> >> By the way, your answer makes me think about software distributions. Do= =20 >> we want our future GNU-Linux / Android / iOS / Windows / BSD / whatever= =20 >> contain a lot of "jbo_*" (imagine "jbo_FR", "jbo_EN", "jbo_CA"...), or j= ust=20 >> a unique "jbo" language? >> Unicity of Lojban is, IMHO, vital. I personally would just drop learning= =20 >> Lojban if I had no hope of that. >> >> Thanks again. >> >> la .sykyndyr. >> >> >> >> >> Le lundi 6 novembre 2017 14:10:44 UTC+1, Gleki Arxokuna a =C3=A9crit : >>> >>> This is a long standing issue. As shanoxilt once correctly noted Lojban= =20 >>> was hijacked by a clique of so called fluent speakers. >>> They started forking never completing any printed documentation of they= =20 >>> were doing. Firs they change the meaning of the particle {lo}, then tri= ed=20 >>> to implement other changes including even the formal grammar. >>> >>> When people try to speak to fluent speakers they are immediately faced= =20 >>> with these discprepancies between The Complete Lojban Language book and= =20 >>> views of particular people. You can imagine all the negative consequenc= es=20 >>> of this situation. >>> >>> But in spite of deterioration of Lojban community and its inability to= =20 >>> produce any fruitful results still Lojban is pretty much how The Comple= te=20 >>> Lojban Language describes it. >>> E.g. learning a revised meaning {lo} is no big deal. >>> >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s=20 >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n=20 >> email to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com . >> To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com=20 >> . >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_14474_1016433722.1510034030568 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
doi la stevo

Sure, you're right, bu= t this was only because I was not sure people would understand my idea with= "jbo_AA", "jbo_XX", "jbo_WATEVER" :-)
<= div>Thanks for adding the precision.

la .sykynder.=



Le lundi 6 novembre 2017 15:25:40 UTC+1, = stevo a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
sykynder: Your= examples of names of Lojban dialects lead me to think that you think the s= o-called dialects of Lojban are based on adaptations to specific natlangs. = Based on my years of minor involvement with Lojban, the differences all hav= e to do with better (pick your own definition if you want) and more consist= ent implementation of logic, pragmatics, and meaning, never on what natlang= s do.=C2=A0

stevo
3D"" Virus-free. www.avast= .com

On Mon, Nov 6, 2017 at 7:56 AM, <suke...@gmai= l.com> wrote:
[side note: I'll answer {la guskant} when I will have read = the answer and links ;-)=C2=A0]

Thank you for = that historical answer, Gleki.
Yes, I perfectly understand the hu= ge damage it can cause.

Nevertheless, I also under= stand why this may arise: I never saw a set of rules accepted by 100= % of people!
  • Laws? There are plenty of debates. Coun= tries have different ones. People disagree on many, but also often agree on= core ones.
  • Coding style rules? There are as many guidel= ines as coders! However, enforcing the whole developer team to use them mak= es teamwork more effective. They're like a common language.
    <= /li>
  • Language rules? Phew! Everyone knows someone who has his/her "= very own" way to spell words, or organize sentences...
For the sake of Lojban's survival and spreading (and despite m= y very short history on that language), I think all=C2=A0must agree on some= unique version,=C2=A0and accept the debate to make it evolve= , and accept that not all proposals will fit in, and that rei= ntegration of proposals may take months or years.
Said otherw= ise, we must all "agree to disagree", may I say...

=
By the way, your answer makes me think about software distributi= ons. Do we want our future GNU-Linux / Android / iOS / Windows / BSD / what= ever contain a lot of "jbo_*" (imagine "jbo_FR", "= jbo_EN", "jbo_CA"...), or just a unique "jbo" lang= uage?
Unicity of Lojban is, IMHO, vital. I personally would just = drop learning Lojban if I had no hope of that.

Thanks again.

la .sykyndyr.




Le lundi 6 novembre 2017 14:10:44 = UTC+1, Gleki Arxokuna a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
This is a long standing issue. As shanoxilt onc= e correctly noted Lojban was hijacked by a clique of so called fluent speak= ers.
They started forking never completing any printed documentat= ion of they were doing. Firs they change the meaning of the particle {lo}, = then tried to implement other changes including even the formal grammar.

When people try to speak to fluent speakers they are= immediately faced with these discprepancies between The Complete Lojban La= nguage book and views of particular people. You can imagine all the negativ= e consequences of this situation.

But in spite of = deterioration of Lojban community and its inability to produce any fruitful= results still Lojban is pretty much how The Complete Lojban Language descr= ibes it.
E.g. learning a revised meaning {lo} is no big deal.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+un...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to loj...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.goo= gle.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/= d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
------=_Part_14474_1016433722.1510034030568-- ------=_Part_14473_422473928.1510034030567--