Received: from mail-vk0-f59.google.com ([209.85.213.59]:47058) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eBza5-0001LO-QF for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 07 Nov 2017 00:50:03 -0800 Received: by mail-vk0-f59.google.com with SMTP id i128sf43194vkh.5 for ; Tue, 07 Nov 2017 00:50:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=sender:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject :mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe :list-unsubscribe; bh=PURFKGnwAnTyaeHEjHkxFUx7yjLrN7TjFTkPTruj5vM=; b=Az2bNbTzRLpUQirCLOLVj916D/Ra0HD1rCG4X8jWmerbE5hXrJ9RGwENwhVEVXSezH PAcUX1hrDzX9b0eE54W6OzuJkkxk+eV/QCQiMkJ22P0EDuw48psXMeexXEFbA5hs1Y2/ AKpgF6oM7UUQ0/fkzWo9n4qAi30+/wudQIDHkhFFwsnh0r3FFNB2zd0J74jFvZ4nffSz f0hKCU99YOkgr7TvdLhO3AbOfOLa3WLzaPPq1wprXerSdkFCNomvNYDzTEW10tuNi4Rf ZQqQqzewPcXZcohxFhWVIvoUmUxgmTli+S2yqFk+PH1MEdVL8FVBF0KCj5X0eFlcws1I qN1g== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id :list-post:list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=PURFKGnwAnTyaeHEjHkxFUx7yjLrN7TjFTkPTruj5vM=; b=qp63Y7DrmwX3iG/IlN5y3o2RvLrIOkOTHxPhm8TQnLSXLl+hIyHRBtyNpghtS/gqBn CxOnCJMlI7Nc0l9b+XQ7xNzg/R//JKWzjw7MH5jLFijiN9+vNQndZ3mQDfF3RwJ7CyIP SyAbh8v7DHTb+xUlFx1/Zw78L9dcbHoDinDAXWqxIrSqqVYffUKhgqHuzEa15Gp+fugi bP9+RBcbXmB1ka/tJuuJuHfV3AHrGXK4tkEjCy7fOIQ7JGx2H1IHfyD+06obdueJfsbh Kmkh47ggileHKelz4LqOOLScirlAex8OIbvHos1SAIWWWyXRlyrraLPHGzjGvY0/zZAv f+BQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=sender:x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to :references:subject:mime-version:x-original-sender:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=PURFKGnwAnTyaeHEjHkxFUx7yjLrN7TjFTkPTruj5vM=; b=IuRGKoFJ8Zxx6NlZyFaVKNbN9z8PHpSa5LNMwQr5gOUWt4UAdjdpXwzHzsVBTDQFNl HIfaqiweLLLpUtY3IvYc9tayoxepBdHXpbpzocHsHcKWjoxt4R38XATJZ8FXTKsYVIsF wcP8sO7/A4h3nOjwZl8UpdIkJnZLzqmeV5rJZb2IE0ijatvA/sGlV6nUuo8HnwljX92h exfEgGH5oiYbx4PHnjvfa6ld1mOihLD1mUGZjScW0PuUwsc6vma9DcKsKdoLuYdy+KuB G4w95mxeH7b4Ln885F9U7pu8raaqj4x6thR0J9kKD1Bu/OPsXxtDBF/MTBSFclHcZpPn q83g== Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Gm-Message-State: AMCzsaXk88FGUWOv7MmYwf9XfRjMyTcmw4Nh6IzywS3KHvSPlDDQJX8i F+0Pz6DWCAz98Q3LcTbmnvA= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+SBgelbmTewSIbbDvXjk2jmVBMuOJpFZqJO3ElpEvu6aAAv69bpDGuBoq7d6Jn2zZr5wNG96w== X-Received: by 10.31.50.18 with SMTP id y18mr1529015vky.6.1510044595562; Tue, 07 Nov 2017 00:49:55 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.176.27.91 with SMTP id n27ls4484076uai.5.gmail; Tue, 07 Nov 2017 00:49:55 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.31.165.204 with SMTP id o195mr1519983vke.4.1510044594846; Tue, 07 Nov 2017 00:49:54 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 00:49:54 -0800 (PST) From: sukender1@gmail.com To: lojban Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <78156dc5-1fb3-4e9d-992c-a8f30facc4fd@googlegroups.com> <2902921f-abf0-4482-b651-ad78066ec8d5@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_15142_25004789.1510044594660" X-Original-Sender: sukender1@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.3 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_bar: - ------=_Part_15142_25004789.1510044594660 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_15143_2007654408.1510044594660" ------=_Part_15143_2007654408.1510044594660 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable doi la .guskant. Thanks for the links. That seems interesting, but I just can't read big=20 Lojban discussions: it took me days (yeah, from time to time, not=20 continuously!) to read and understand 100% of this famous "la .teris."! My current level is one of the reasons why I'm absolutely not ready to=20 enter any board or committee. Is there an HTML version somewhere so that everyone can access it without= =20 developer tools? ** Paralysis ** So, according to what you say, BPFK is really paralyzed. When you want to= =20 rely on someone's work, well, (s)he might simply be overloaded with other= =20 tasks and may never answer. It seems that there are no "replacement"=20 guys/gals: if one is not able to perform a task, whatever the reason, then= =20 nobody can replace him/her. Do you think so too? It feels so dramatic to me that you've lost hope. It is exactly what I=20 feared: anyone can do whatever, in whatever direction. That's freedom.=20 That's not wrong in itself. But... nothing more? Ideas create "explosions"= =20 and there is no structure at all to make all of this collapse to something= =20 better and organized? You told your efforts were blocked by some people. Were there discussions= =20 (I mean enough discussions)? Voting? Enough participants in voting? Enough= =20 time for the committee to work on proposals? - If so, maybe there is something to do with structures (as said above)? - If not, maybe all committee members should accept the fact that=20 language will evolve? =20 ** Funds ** As I just told to Gleki : "even if many Lojbanists are enthusiasts, they=20 all need money to live and cannot work for free indefinitely". You know, some guy on the Facebook group (=D0=A1=D0=B5=D1=80=D0=B3=D0=B5=D0= =B9 =D0=98=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=B8=D0=BD=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B8=D1=85) asked if=20 "crypto-currency rewards" could be an idea for translations jobs. At first= =20 I thought this was not very useful, and surely complex to set up. However,= =20 I feel now that the idea behind this (money to encourage people working on= =20 Lojban stuff) may be one of the "energy sources" that would change the=20 game. Of course, this has to be very carefully handled! But we may imagine= =20 something like periodic small fund raising (donations, crowdfunding, etc.)= =20 on one hand, and a system putting clear (and small) objectives and rewards= =20 on the other hand. I feel like the idea has to be enhanced and discussed...= =20 But don't you think it is worth debating on this? This of course would be= =20 only some tools to help, and the current organizations would still be there= =20 and help. ** Organizations ** An by the way, this thread highlighted the fact that there are 3 "major"=20 groups down there: LLG, GPFK, and the Coders Group. Even if history may=20 explain why there are three, the current "freezing" status of all may be a= =20 signal for changing things. I don't know even 1% of what each did; but *FRO= M=20 AFAR*, it seems that all organizations share some common interests, and may= =20 perform better together. Of course, merging everyone into a single entity= =20 is surely fictional. But they may organize as "subsidiary companies",=20 sharing a purely administrative section with some functional parts (ex:=20 financial as for the previous topic, rule sets, etc.). Do you feel this=20 would be technically possible? And would this be desirable and profitable? I thought about this overnight (!) and specifically about one rule: as=20 people discuss about language, is it wise to allow discussions to be in=20 Lojban only? Maybe a common rule of requiring a (rough?) translation in=20 another "reference" language would help. Of course, as there are plenty of= =20 materials in English out there, it seems logical that this would be=20 English, but that's not mandatory, I guess. You known, I'm willing to help but I can only help organizing stuff, and=20 spreading the word. Not much more because of my too recent implication. ** [side note] ** Thank you very much for helping me improving my skills. - "li .abu pi'e pa" is just a great idea! I didn't know how to convert= =20 the "A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2" levels, so I used a basic "translation". Bu= t=20 putting as if it was a number "A dot 1" of unspecified base is awesome! - But what about the "less than"? Can I write "me'i li .abu pi'e pa"? - My bad about "fo" (and not "fi"): I was counting "fa" from x2 instead= =20 of x1, as for "se" (because there is no "x1 <-> x1" swapping cmavo), so = I=20 had an offset of 1. I mixed up counting rules! - Note : I thought "me'a..." was a sumti place, but parser told me it's= =20 a modal. So I guess I cannot use it, or else "le ropno bangu bo manri= "=20 would fall in m3 place (units) of "kamjunmre". - Finally, your last sentence is too obscure for my level! What I=20 understand: "One cannot say `I'm never wrong`. I can only wish (???)". ki'ecai la .sykyndyr. Le lundi 6 novembre 2017 14:41:43 UTC+1, guskant a =C3=A9crit : > > > You will find issues for CLL 1.2 here: > > https://github.com/lojban/cll/milestone/12 > > The issues were already discussed by past lojbanists, and Cirko worked on= =20 > introducing them into the next version of CLL. Gleki asked BPFK members f= or=20 > approval of them, and no one responded: > > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/bpfk-list/jqVDF5z9LqA > > I, as a member of BPFK, am responsible for approving them, but I did not= =20 > have enough time for that. Even if I have time for that, I can't imagine= =20 > that I can approve any English texts written by an native English speaker= =20 > because I'm very poor at English. > > You can freely approve them even if you are not a member of BPFK. If you= =20 > want to do it as a member of BPFK, just post a message in Lojban to=20 > "bpfk-list" Google Group at the URL above, saying that you want to be a= =20 > member, and you will be admitted. > > > > You should find many branches at the github repository above. I have neve= r=20 > contributed to the repository for some reasons: > > - the repository is governed by "the Lojban Coders' Group". I regard it a= s=20 > a kind of unofficial fans' group. Although the Group owns many official o= r=20 > pre-official contents, the owner(s) and the contributors are not equal to= =20 > the members of BPFK or LLG. I am a member of BPFK and LLG, and I have nev= er=20 > invited as a collaborator or an owner of the group. I once made a small= =20 > pull request to another repository of the group, but it was ignored for= =20 > almost one year. > > - I made some efforts on bpfk-list to remove grammatical difficulties or= =20 > important logical defects, but we had always a stubborn defender of the= =20 > current state. You can find such discussions with no conclusion in the=20 > bpfk-list Google Group above. Consequently, I have lost hope in updating= =20 > CLL, and shifted myself to create a large personal commentary on the whol= e=20 > CLL ver.1.1. > > > > lo'ai fi sa'ai fu le'ai ie pei=20 > i ji'a e'u lo'ai me'a lu .abu. pa li'u sa'ai li .abu pi'e pa le'ai ie pei > > > i na'i ma'i mi na'e toldra i po'o .au sajgau do lo xauzma be fi mi > > mi'e la guskant > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_15143_2007654408.1510044594660 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
doi la .guskant.

Thanks for = the links. That seems interesting, but I just can't read big Lojban dis= cussions: it took me days (yeah, from time to time, not continuously!) to r= ead and understand 100% of this famous "la .teris."!
My= current level is one of the reasons why I'm absolutely not ready to en= ter any board or committee.

Is there an HTML versi= on somewhere so that everyone can access it without developer tools?
<= div>
* Paralysis *
S= o, according to what you say, BPFK is really paralyzed. When you want to re= ly on someone's work, well, (s)he might simply be overloaded with other= tasks and may never answer. It seems that there are no "replacement&q= uot; guys/gals: if one is not able to perform a task, whatever the reason, = then nobody can replace him/her. Do you think so too?

<= div>It feels so dramatic to me that you've lost hope. It is exactly wha= t I feared: anyone can do whatever, in whatever direction. That's freed= om. That's not wrong in itself. But... nothing more? Ideas create "= ;explosions" and there is no structure at all to make all of this coll= apse to something better and organized?

You told y= our efforts were blocked by some people. Were there discussions (I mean eno= ugh discussions)? Voting? Enough participants in voting? Enough time for th= e committee to work on proposals?
  • If so, maybe there is s= omething to do with structures (as said above)?
  • If not, maybe a= ll committee members should accept the fact that language will evolve?
    <= /li>

* Funds *=
As I just told to Gleki : "even if many Lojbanists are enth= usiasts, they all need money to live and cannot work for free indefinitely&= quot;.
You know, some guy on the Facebook group (=D0=A1=D0=B5=D1= =80=D0=B3=D0=B5=D0=B9 =D0=98=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=B8=D0=BD=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B8=D1= =85) asked if "crypto-currency rewards" could be an idea for tran= slations jobs. At first I thought this was not very useful, and surely comp= lex to set up. However, I feel now that the idea behind this (money to enco= urage people working on Lojban stuff) may be one of the "energy source= s" that would change the game. Of course, this has to be very carefull= y handled! But we may imagine something like periodic small fund raising (d= onations, crowdfunding, etc.) on one hand, and a system putting clear (and = small) objectives and rewards on the other hand. I feel like the idea has t= o be enhanced and discussed... But don't you think it is worth debating= on this? This of course would be only some tools to help, and the current = organizations would still be there and help.

* Organizations *
An by the way, this t= hread highlighted the fact that there are 3 "major" groups down t= here: LLG, GPFK, and the Coders Group. Even if history may explain why ther= e are three, the current "freezing" status of all may be a signal= for changing things. I don't know even 1% of what each did; but = FROM AFAR, it seems that all organizations share some common intere= sts, and may perform better together. Of course, merging everyone into a si= ngle entity is surely fictional. But they may organize as "subsidiary = companies", sharing a purely administrative section with some function= al parts (ex: financial as for the previous topic, rule sets, etc.). Do you= feel this would be technically possible? And would this be desirable and p= rofitable?

I thought about this overnight (!) and = specifically about one rule: as people discuss about language, is it wise t= o allow discussions to be in Lojban only? Maybe a common rule of requiring = a (rough?) translation in another "reference" language would help= . Of course, as there are plenty of materials in English out there, it seem= s logical that this would be English, but that's not mandatory, I guess= .

You known, I'm willing to help but I can onl= y help organizing stuff, and spreading the word. Not much more because of m= y too recent implication.

* [s= ide note] *
Thank you very much for helping me improvi= ng my skills.
  • "li .abu pi'e pa" is just a g= reat idea! I didn't know how to convert the "A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C= 2" levels, so I used a basic "translation". But putting as i= f it was a number "A dot 1" of unspecified base is awesome!
  • But what about the "less than"? Can I write "me'i= li .abu pi'e pa"?
  • My bad about "fo" (and no= t "fi"): I was counting "fa" from x2 instead of x1, as = for "se" (because there is no "x1 <-> x1" swappin= g cmavo), so I had an offset of 1. I mixed up counting rules!
      • <= li>Note : I thought "me'a..." was a sumti place, but parser t= old me it's a modal. So I guess I cannot use it, or else "le ropno= bangu bo manri" would fall in m3 place (units) of "kamjunmre&quo= t;.
  • Finally, your last sentence is too obscure for my level! W= hat I understand: "One cannot say `I'm never wrong`. I can only wi= sh (???)".
ki'ecai

la= .sykyndyr.


Le lundi 6 novembre 2017 14:41:43 UTC+1= , guskant a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
<= div dir=3D"ltr">

You will find issues for CLL 1.2 h= ere:


=
The issues were already discussed by past lojbanists, and Cirko = worked on introducing them into the next version of CLL. Gleki asked BPFK m= embers for approval of them, and no one responded:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topi= c/bpfk-list/jqVDF5z9LqA

I, as a member of= BPFK, am responsible for approving them, but I did not have enough time fo= r that. Even if I have time for that, I can't imagine that I can approv= e any English texts written by an native English speaker because I'm ve= ry poor at English.

You can freely approve them ev= en if you are not a member of BPFK. If you want to do it as a member of BPF= K, just post a message in Lojban to "bpfk-list" Google Group at t= he URL above, saying that you want to be a member, and you will be admitted= .



You should f= ind many branches at the github repository above. I have never contributed = to the repository for some reasons:

- the reposito= ry is governed by "the Lojban Coders' Group". I regard it as = a kind of unofficial fans' group. Although the Group owns many official= or pre-official contents, the owner(s) and the contributors are not equal = to the members of BPFK or LLG. I am a member of BPFK and LLG, and I have ne= ver invited as a collaborator or an owner of the group. I once made a small= pull request to another repository of the group, but it was ignored for al= most one year.

- I made some efforts on bpfk-list = to remove grammatical difficulties or important logical defects, but we had= always a stubborn defender of the current state. You can find such discuss= ions with no conclusion in the bpfk-list Google Group above. Consequently, = I have lost hope in updating CLL, and shifted myself to create a large pers= onal commentary on the whole CLL ver.1.1.



lo'ai fi sa'ai fu le'ai ie pei=C2=A0=
i ji'a e'u lo'ai me'a lu .abu. pa li'u sa= 9;ai li .abu pi'e pa le'ai ie pei

i na'i ma'i mi na'e toldra i po'o .au sajgau d= o lo xauzma be fi mi

mi'e la guskant

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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