Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 08:40:38 -0800 (PST)
From: guskant <gusni.kantu@gmail.com>
To: lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Message-Id: <31152289-ec64-49e4-82c3-bab4ed82cf9a@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <fc65412c-c3a0-49d2-9f96-eb015dde49fa@googlegroups.com>
References: <ef141db1-9811-4d44-8458-972ddffdd883@googlegroups.com>
 <78156dc5-1fb3-4e9d-992c-a8f30facc4fd@googlegroups.com> <CAJHgu=8BCaGqRkrD66zEtFiPkbG77EZ1u5N3uEO-+1bT96p1ig@mail.gmail.com>
 <d71e999e-78c0-48f5-9b6c-bf320ad478fc@googlegroups.com>
 <CAMKwHj1jizB+T9s6rAqPzMmSqFxC_eKsv3H10Ud2D4fRhZOH+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <2902921f-abf0-4482-b651-ad78066ec8d5@googlegroups.com>
 <ee1d816d-a805-4ea0-a88f-c7c7847594bf@googlegroups.com>
 <fc65412c-c3a0-49d2-9f96-eb015dde49fa@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; 
	boundary="----=_Part_15792_778723394.1510072838867"
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -1.3
X-Spam_score_int: -12
X-Spam_bar: -

------=_Part_15792_778723394.1510072838867
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_15793_662078920.1510072838868"

------=_Part_15793_662078920.1510072838868
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Le mardi 7 novembre 2017 08:49:56 UTC, Benoit Neil a =C3=A9crit :
>
> doi la .guskant.
>
> Thanks for the links. That seems interesting, but I just can't read big=
=20
> Lojban discussions: it took me days (yeah, from time to time, not=20
> continuously!) to read and understand 100% of this famous "la .teris."!
> My current level is one of the reasons why I'm absolutely not ready to=20
> enter any board or committee.
>
>

BPFK decided in 2015 to talk in Lojban, but LLG meeting is still talked in=
=20
English. Some of LLG members are not fluent in Lojban. The LLG meeting is=
=20
held on a private mailing list, and anyone can attend the meeting by=20
subscribing to the list:
http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-members
You can even request the membership of LLG voting member.

=20

> Is there an HTML version somewhere so that everyone can access it without=
=20
> developer tools?
>
>

HTML version of what?
BPFK and LLG are held in mailing list, and Lojban Coders' Group is held on=
=20
Github. I don't find any other version of meeting minutes.


=20

> ** Paralysis **
> So, according to what you say, BPFK is really paralyzed. When you want to=
=20
> rely on someone's work, well, (s)he might simply be overloaded with other=
=20
> tasks and may never answer. It seems that there are no "replacement"=20
> guys/gals: if one is not able to perform a task, whatever the reason, the=
n=20
> nobody can replace him/her. Do you think so too?
>
>

Yes.

=20

> It feels so dramatic to me that you've lost hope. It is exactly what I=20
> feared: anyone can do whatever, in whatever direction. That's freedom.=20
> That's not wrong in itself. But... nothing more? Ideas create "explosions=
"=20
> and there is no structure at all to make all of this collapse to somethin=
g=20
> better and organized?
>
>

I made some critical remarks on the CLL Lojban, and someone agreed, but=20
finally I did not receive enough reaction for including any ideas of them=
=20
into the CLL:

https://mw.lojban.org/papri/gadri:_an_unofficial_commentary_from_a_logical_=
point_of_view
(written in 2014)

https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Complement_to_causation_sumtcita
(written in 2015)

https://mw.lojban.org/papri/na_go'i
(written in 2016)


=20

> You told your efforts were blocked by some people. Were there discussions=
=20
> (I mean enough discussions)? Voting? Enough participants in voting? Enoug=
h=20
> time for the committee to work on proposals?
>
>    - If so, maybe there is something to do with structures (as said=20
>    above)?
>    - If not, maybe all committee members should accept the fact that=20
>    language will evolve?
>   =20
>
>

Some of the issues were discussed, I think enough, but not brought to=20
voting. As for the others, discussion was stopped in midway. I think the=20
problem is caused by the structure of the committee.=20

=20

> ** Funds **
> As I just told to Gleki : "even if many Lojbanists are enthusiasts, they=
=20
> all need money to live and cannot work for free indefinitely".
> You know, some guy on the Facebook group (=D0=A1=D0=B5=D1=80=D0=B3=D0=B5=
=D0=B9 =D0=98=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=B8=D0=BD=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B8=D1=85) asked if=20
> "crypto-currency rewards" could be an idea for translations jobs. At firs=
t=20
> I thought this was not very useful, and surely complex to set up. However=
,=20
> I feel now that the idea behind this (money to encourage people working o=
n=20
> Lojban stuff) may be one of the "energy sources" that would change the=20
> game. Of course, this has to be very carefully handled! But we may imagin=
e=20
> something like periodic small fund raising (donations, crowdfunding, etc.=
)=20
> on one hand, and a system putting clear (and small) objectives and reward=
s=20
> on the other hand. I feel like the idea has to be enhanced and discussed.=
..=20
> But don't you think it is worth debating on this? This of course would be=
=20
> only some tools to help, and the current organizations would still be the=
re=20
> and help.
>
>

At least in the current structure of committees, any ideas about rewards=20
will be stuck. Rewards should belong to LLG's business, but the LLG meeting=
=20
is completely died. My motions for rescuing official contents were always=
=20
ignored. They were not even discussed. The main part of the meeting=20
consists of roll call, voting for the board members, and voting for closing=
=20
the meeting.


=20

> ** Organizations **
> An by the way, this thread highlighted the fact that there are 3 "major"=
=20
> groups down there: LLG, GPFK, and the Coders Group. Even if history may=
=20
> explain why there are three, the current "freezing" status of all may be =
a=20
> signal for changing things. I don't know even 1% of what each did; but *F=
ROM=20
> AFAR*, it seems that all organizations share some common interests, and=
=20
> may perform better together. Of course, merging everyone into a single=20
> entity is surely fictional. But they may organize as "subsidiary=20
> companies", sharing a purely administrative section with some functional=
=20
> parts (ex: financial as for the previous topic, rule sets, etc.). Do you=
=20
> feel this would be technically possible? And would this be desirable and=
=20
> profitable?
>
>

I guess those three groups worked like a parent company (LLG) and=20
subsidiary companies (BPFK, Lojban Coders' Group) in the past. BPFK was=20
created by LLG in order to complete technical documents. Lojban Coders'=20
Group was created by voluntary IT engineers, among which there were members=
=20
of LLG or BPFK, maybe for creating various tools for learning Lojban.

Currently, none of them work fine. LLG is died, BPFK is dying, Lojban=20
Coders' Group is mixing official and unofficial contents without mentioning=
=20
responsibility of the unofficial contents.


=20

> I thought about this overnight (!) and specifically about one rule: as=20
> people discuss about language, is it wise to allow discussions to be in=
=20
> Lojban only? Maybe a common rule of requiring a (rough?) translation in=
=20
> another "reference" language would help. Of course, as there are plenty o=
f=20
> materials in English out there, it seems logical that this would be=20
> English, but that's not mandatory, I guess.
>
> You known, I'm willing to help but I can only help organizing stuff, and=
=20
> spreading the word. Not much more because of my too recent implication.
>
>

I have no problem in discussing Lojban in Lojban. Discussion of Lojban in=
=20
English continued until 2015, and it also worked fine. I personally profit=
=20
more from discussion in Lojban as Lojban exercises. I don't know what the=
=20
other members of BPFK think about it.

BPFK is currently dying, so it might be worth trying English discussion as=
=20
AED.


=20

> ** [side note] **
> Thank you very much for helping me improving my skills.
>
>    - "li .abu pi'e pa" is just a great idea! I didn't know how to convert=
=20
>    the "A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2" levels, so I used a basic "translation". =
But=20
>    putting as if it was a number "A dot 1" of unspecified base is awesome=
!
>    - But what about the "less than"? Can I write "me'i li .abu pi'e pa"?
>   =20
>

I forgot taking your word {me'a}. It is a function word of part of speech=
=20
BAI, and related to {mleca}. {me'a X} means therefore that X is less than=
=20
something involved in the meaning of the statement.

If you wanted to say "less than X" using a function word of BAI, {mau X} or=
=20
{se me'a X} would be suitable.

In my expression, it should be replaced by {me'i} just after {li}:
li me'i .abu pi'e pa


=20

>
>    -=20
>    - My bad about "fo" (and not "fi"): I was counting "fa" from x2=20
>    instead of x1, as for "se" (because there is no "x1 <-> x1" swapping=
=20
>    cmavo), so I had an offset of 1. I mixed up counting rules!
>    - Note : I thought "me'a..." was a sumti place, but parser told me=20
>       it's a modal. So I guess I cannot use it, or else "le ropno bangu b=
o manri"=20
>       would fall in m3 place (units) of "kamjunmre".
>    - Finally, your last sentence is too obscure for my level! What I=20
>    understand: "One cannot say `I'm never wrong`. I can only wish (???)".
>
>

By my last sentence {i na'i ma'i mi na'e toldra i po'o .au sajgau do lo=20
xauzma be fi mi}, I meant "well, from my point of view, you are not wrong.=
=20
I only want to let you know something better according to me."

=20

> ki'ecai
>
>

(You may want to insert {do'u}, {i}, {mi'e} or any other words for=20
separation here, otherwise you are thanking you.)

=20

> la .sykyndyr.
>


mu'o mi'e la guskant
=20

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

------=_Part_15793_662078920.1510072838868
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><br>Le mardi 7 novembre 2017 08:49:56 UTC, Benoit Neil=
 a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;ma=
rgin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div>doi la .guskant.</div><div><br></div><div>Thanks for the link=
s. That seems interesting, but I just can&#39;t read big Lojban discussions=
: it took me days (yeah, from time to time, not continuously!) to read and =
understand 100% of this famous &quot;la .teris.&quot;!</div><div>My current=
 level is one of the reasons why I&#39;m absolutely not ready to enter any =
board or committee.</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><=
div><br></div><div>BPFK decided in 2015 to talk in Lojban, but LLG meeting =
is still talked in English. Some of LLG members are not fluent in Lojban. T=
he LLG meeting is held on a private mailing list, and anyone can attend the=
 meeting by subscribing to the list:</div><div>http://mail.lojban.org/mailm=
an/listinfo/llg-members</div><div>You can even request the membership of LL=
G voting member.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>Is there an HTML v=
ersion somewhere so that everyone can access it without developer tools?</d=
iv><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>HTM=
L version of what?</div><div>BPFK and LLG are held in mailing list, and Loj=
ban Coders&#39; Group is held on Github. I don&#39;t find any other version=
 of meeting minutes.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;borde=
r-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div=
><font size=3D"4"><b>* Paralysis *</b></font></div><div>So, according to wh=
at you say, BPFK is really paralyzed. When you want to rely on someone&#39;=
s work, well, (s)he might simply be overloaded with other tasks and may nev=
er answer. It seems that there are no &quot;replacement&quot; guys/gals: if=
 one is not able to perform a task, whatever the reason, then nobody can re=
place him/her. Do you think so too?</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Yes.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;b=
order-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div>=
<div>It feels so dramatic to me that you&#39;ve lost hope. It is exactly wh=
at I feared: anyone can do whatever, in whatever direction. That&#39;s free=
dom. That&#39;s not wrong in itself. But... nothing more? Ideas create &quo=
t;explosions&quot; and there is no structure at all to make all of this col=
lapse to something better and organized?</div><div><br></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I made some critical remarks on the=
 CLL Lojban, and someone agreed, but finally I did not receive enough react=
ion for including any ideas of them into the CLL:</div><div><br></div><div>=
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/gadri:_an_unofficial_commentary_from_a_logical_=
point_of_view</div><div>(written in 2014)</div><div><br></div><div>https://=
mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Complement_to_causation_sumtcita</div><di=
v>(written in 2015)</div><div><br></div><div>https://mw.lojban.org/papri/na=
_go&#39;i</div><div>(written in 2016)</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><d=
iv>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-=
left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr=
"><div></div><div>You told your efforts were blocked by some people. Were t=
here discussions (I mean enough discussions)? Voting? Enough participants i=
n voting? Enough time for the committee to work on proposals?</div><div><ul=
><li>If so, maybe there is something to do with structures (as said above)?=
<br></li><li>If not, maybe all committee members should accept the fact tha=
t language will evolve?<br></li></ul></div><div><br></div></div></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Some of the issues were discussed, I t=
hink enough, but not brought to voting. As for the others, discussion was s=
topped in midway. I think the problem is caused by the structure of the com=
mittee.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid=
;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div><font size=3D"4"><b>*=
 Funds *</b></font></div><div>As I just told to Gleki : &quot;even if many =
Lojbanists are enthusiasts, they all need money to live and cannot work for=
 free indefinitely&quot;.</div><div>You know, some guy on the Facebook grou=
p (=D0=A1=D0=B5=D1=80=D0=B3=D0=B5=D0=B9 =D0=98=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=B8=D0=BD=D1=
=81=D0=BA=D0=B8=D1=85) asked if &quot;crypto-currency rewards&quot; could b=
e an idea for translations jobs. At first I thought this was not very usefu=
l, and surely complex to set up. However, I feel now that the idea behind t=
his (money to encourage people working on Lojban stuff) may be one of the &=
quot;energy sources&quot; that would change the game. Of course, this has t=
o be very carefully handled! But we may imagine something like periodic sma=
ll fund raising (donations, crowdfunding, etc.) on one hand, and a system p=
utting clear (and small) objectives and rewards on the other hand. I feel l=
ike the idea has to be enhanced and discussed... But don&#39;t you think it=
 is worth debating on this? This of course would be only some tools to help=
, and the current organizations would still be there and help.</div><div><b=
r></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>At least in t=
he current structure of committees, any ideas about rewards will be stuck. =
Rewards should belong to LLG&#39;s business, but the LLG meeting is complet=
ely died. My motions for rescuing official contents were always ignored. Th=
ey were not even discussed. The main part of the meeting consists of roll c=
all, voting for the board members, and voting for closing the meeting.</div=
><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div><font size=3D"4"><b>* Or=
ganizations *</b></font></div><div>An by the way, this thread highlighted t=
he fact that there are 3 &quot;major&quot; groups down there: LLG, GPFK, an=
d the Coders Group. Even if history may explain why there are three, the cu=
rrent &quot;freezing&quot; status of all may be a signal for changing thing=
s. I don&#39;t know even 1% of what each did; but <b><u>FROM AFAR</u></b>, =
it seems that all organizations share some common interests, and may perfor=
m better together. Of course, merging everyone into a single entity is sure=
ly fictional. But they may organize as &quot;subsidiary companies&quot;, sh=
aring a purely administrative section with some functional parts (ex: finan=
cial as for the previous topic, rule sets, etc.). Do you feel this would be=
 technically possible? And would this be desirable and profitable?</div><di=
v><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I guess t=
hose three groups worked like a parent company (LLG) and subsidiary compani=
es (BPFK, Lojban Coders&#39; Group) in the past. BPFK was created by LLG in=
 order to complete technical documents. Lojban Coders&#39; Group was create=
d by voluntary IT engineers, among which there were members of LLG or BPFK,=
 maybe for creating various tools for learning Lojban.</div><div><br></div>=
<div>Currently, none of them work fine. LLG is died, BPFK is dying, Lojban =
Coders&#39; Group is mixing official and unofficial contents without mentio=
ning responsibility of the unofficial contents.</div><div><br></div><div><b=
r></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:=
 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div =
dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>I thought about this overnight (!) and specific=
ally about one rule: as people discuss about language, is it wise to allow =
discussions to be in Lojban only? Maybe a common rule of requiring a (rough=
?) translation in another &quot;reference&quot; language would help. Of cou=
rse, as there are plenty of materials in English out there, it seems logica=
l that this would be English, but that&#39;s not mandatory, I guess.</div><=
div><br></div><div>You known, I&#39;m willing to help but I can only help o=
rganizing stuff, and spreading the word. Not much more because of my too re=
cent implication.</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v><br></div><div>I have no problem in discussing Lojban in Lojban. Discussi=
on of Lojban in English continued until 2015, and it also worked fine. I pe=
rsonally profit more from discussion in Lojban as Lojban exercises. I don&#=
39;t know what the other members of BPFK think about it.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>BPFK is currently dying, so it might be worth trying English discuss=
ion as AED.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote=
 class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div><font si=
ze=3D"4"><b>* [side note] *</b></font></div><div>Thank you very much for he=
lping me improving my skills.</div><div><ul><li>&quot;li .abu pi&#39;e pa&q=
uot; is just a great idea! I didn&#39;t know how to convert the &quot;A1, A=
2, B1, B2, C1, C2&quot; levels, so I used a basic &quot;translation&quot;. =
But putting as if it was a number &quot;A dot 1&quot; of unspecified base i=
s awesome!<br></li><li>But what about the &quot;less than&quot;? Can I writ=
e &quot;me&#39;i li .abu pi&#39;e pa&quot;?<br></li></ul></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>I forgot taking your word {me&#39=
;a}. It is a function word of part of speech BAI, and related to {mleca}. {=
me&#39;a X} means therefore that X is less than something involved in the m=
eaning of the statement.</div><div><br></div><div>If you wanted to say &quo=
t;less than X&quot; using a function word of BAI, {mau X} or {se me&#39;a X=
} would be suitable.</div><div><br></div><div>In my expression, it should b=
e replaced by {me&#39;i} just after {li}:</div><div>li me&#39;i .abu pi&#39=
;e pa</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div><ul><li></li><li>My bad a=
bout &quot;fo&quot; (and not &quot;fi&quot;): I was counting &quot;fa&quot;=
 from x2 instead of x1, as for &quot;se&quot; (because there is no &quot;x1=
 &lt;-&gt; x1&quot; swapping cmavo), so I had an offset of 1. I mixed up co=
unting rules!<br></li><ul><li>Note : I thought &quot;me&#39;a...&quot; was =
a sumti place, but parser told me it&#39;s a modal. So I guess I cannot use=
 it, or else &quot;le ropno bangu bo manri&quot; would fall in m3 place (un=
its) of &quot;kamjunmre&quot;.</li></ul><li>Finally, your last sentence is =
too obscure for my level! What I understand: &quot;One cannot say `I&#39;m =
never wrong`. I can only wish (???)&quot;.</li></ul></div><div></div></div>=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>By my last sentence {i na&#=
39;i ma&#39;i mi na&#39;e toldra i po&#39;o .au sajgau do lo xauzma be fi m=
i}, I meant &quot;well, from my point of view, you are not wrong. I only wa=
nt to let you know something better according to me.&quot;</div><div><br></=
div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;m=
argin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=
=3D"ltr"><div>ki&#39;ecai</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br><=
/div><div><br></div><div>(You may want to insert {do&#39;u}, {i}, {mi&#39;e=
} or any other words for separation here, otherwise you are thanking you.)<=
/div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left:=
 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>la .sykyndyr.</div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e la guskant</div><di=
v>=C2=A0</div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http=
s://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

------=_Part_15793_662078920.1510072838868--

------=_Part_15792_778723394.1510072838867--