Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 74.6.133.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.6.133.42;
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 17:29:20 +0000 (UTC)
From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
To: <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <696697330.4644202.1510075760695@mail.yahoo.com>
In-Reply-To: <31152289-ec64-49e4-82c3-bab4ed82cf9a@googlegroups.com>
References: <ef141db1-9811-4d44-8458-972ddffdd883@googlegroups.com> <78156dc5-1fb3-4e9d-992c-a8f30facc4fd@googlegroups.com> <CAJHgu=8BCaGqRkrD66zEtFiPkbG77EZ1u5N3uEO-+1bT96p1ig@mail.gmail.com> <d71e999e-78c0-48f5-9b6c-bf320ad478fc@googlegroups.com> <CAMKwHj1jizB+T9s6rAqPzMmSqFxC_eKsv3H10Ud2D4fRhZOH+A@mail.gmail.com> <2902921f-abf0-4482-b651-ad78066ec8d5@googlegroups.com> <ee1d816d-a805-4ea0-a88f-c7c7847594bf@googlegroups.com> <fc65412c-c3a0-49d2-9f96-eb015dde49fa@googlegroups.com> <31152289-ec64-49e4-82c3-bab4ed82cf9a@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_4644201_1909536242.1510075760689"
Content-Length: 26483
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -2.0
X-Spam_score_int: -19
X-Spam_bar: --

------=_Part_4644201_1909536242.1510075760689
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

 A comment in a recent note suggests that folks have been diddling with {le=
} and {lo} yet again (still?). =C2=A0As someone who devoted several pounds =
of paper (virtual, of course) to that issue over the last 40 years, I am cu=
rious to new hat the latest turn is. =C2=A0When last I looked, {le x} was a=
 term =C2=A0that arbitrarily designed a node with a pragmatic (but not nece=
ssarily semantic ) link to x. =C2=A0{lo x} designated the salient node in t=
he matrix generated by part-whole on the set of xs. =C2=A0What are the new =
wrinkles?pycyn

    On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 10:40:41 AM CST, guskant <gusni.kantu@gma=
il.com> wrote: =20
=20
=20

Le mardi 7 novembre 2017 08:49:56 UTC, Benoit Neil a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
doi la .guskant.
Thanks for the links. That seems interesting, but I just can't read big Loj=
ban discussions: it took me days (yeah, from time to time, not continuously=
!) to read and understand 100% of this famous "la .teris."!My current level=
 is one of the reasons why I'm absolutely not ready to enter any board or c=
ommittee.


BPFK decided in 2015 to talk in Lojban, but LLG meeting is still talked in =
English. Some of LLG members are not fluent in Lojban. The LLG meeting is h=
eld on a private mailing list, and anyone can attend the meeting by subscri=
bing to the list:http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg-membersYou can=
 even request the membership of LLG voting member.
=C2=A0
Is there an HTML version somewhere so that everyone can access it without d=
eveloper tools?


HTML version of what?BPFK and LLG are held in mailing list, and Lojban Code=
rs' Group is held on Github. I don't find any other version of meeting minu=
tes.

=C2=A0
* Paralysis *So, according to what you say, BPFK is really paralyzed. When =
you want to rely on someone's work, well, (s)he might simply be overloaded =
with other tasks and may never answer. It seems that there are no "replacem=
ent" guys/gals: if one is not able to perform a task, whatever the reason, =
then nobody can replace him/her. Do you think so too?


Yes.
=C2=A0
It feels so dramatic to me that you've lost hope. It is exactly what I fear=
ed: anyone can do whatever, in whatever direction. That's freedom. That's n=
ot wrong in itself. But... nothing more? Ideas create "explosions" and ther=
e is no structure at all to make all of this collapse to something better a=
nd organized?


I made some critical remarks on the CLL Lojban, and someone agreed, but fin=
ally I did not receive enough reaction for including any ideas of them into=
 the CLL:
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/gadri:_an_unofficial_commentary_from_a_logical_=
point_of_view(written in 2014)
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section:_Complement_to_causation_sumtcita(=
written in 2015)
https://mw.lojban.org/papri/na_go'i(written in 2016)

=C2=A0
You told your efforts were blocked by some people. Were there discussions (=
I mean enough discussions)? Voting? Enough participants in voting? Enough t=
ime for the committee to work on proposals?  =20
   - If so, maybe there is something to do with structures (as said above)?=
  =20

   - If not, maybe all committee members should accept the fact that langua=
ge will evolve?  =20


Some of the issues were discussed, I think enough, but not brought to votin=
g. As for the others, discussion was stopped in midway. I think the problem=
 is caused by the structure of the committee.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
* Funds *As I just told to Gleki : "even if many Lojbanists are enthusiasts=
, they all need money to live and cannot work for free indefinitely".You kn=
ow, some guy on the Facebook group (=D0=A1=D0=B5=D1=80=D0=B3=D0=B5=D0=B9 =
=D0=98=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=B8=D0=BD=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B8=D1=85) asked if "crypto-cu=
rrency rewards" could be an idea for translations jobs. At first I thought =
this was not very useful, and surely complex to set up. However, I feel now=
 that the idea behind this (money to encourage people working on Lojban stu=
ff) may be one of the "energy sources" that would change the game. Of cours=
e, this has to be very carefully handled! But we may imagine something like=
 periodic small fund raising (donations, crowdfunding, etc.) on one hand, a=
nd a system putting clear (and small) objectives and rewards on the other h=
and. I feel like the idea has to be enhanced and discussed... But don't you=
 think it is worth debating on this? This of course would be only some tool=
s to help, and the current organizations would still be there and help.


At least in the current structure of committees, any ideas about rewards wi=
ll be stuck. Rewards should belong to LLG's business, but the LLG meeting i=
s completely died. My motions for rescuing official contents were always ig=
nored. They were not even discussed. The main part of the meeting consists =
of roll call, voting for the board members, and voting for closing the meet=
ing.

=C2=A0
* Organizations *An by the way, this thread highlighted the fact that there=
 are 3 "major" groups down there: LLG, GPFK, and the Coders Group. Even if =
history may explain why there are three, the current "freezing" status of a=
ll may be a signal for changing things. I don't know even 1% of what each d=
id; but FROM AFAR, it seems that all organizations share some common intere=
sts, and may perform better together. Of course, merging everyone into a si=
ngle entity is surely fictional. But they may organize as "subsidiary compa=
nies", sharing a purely administrative section with some functional parts (=
ex: financial as for the previous topic, rule sets, etc.). Do you feel this=
 would be technically possible? And would this be desirable and profitable?


I guess those three groups worked like a parent company (LLG) and subsidiar=
y companies (BPFK, Lojban Coders' Group) in the past. BPFK was created by L=
LG in order to complete technical documents. Lojban Coders' Group was creat=
ed by voluntary IT engineers, among which there were members of LLG or BPFK=
, maybe for creating various tools for learning Lojban.
Currently, none of them work fine. LLG is died, BPFK is dying, Lojban Coder=
s' Group is mixing official and unofficial contents without mentioning resp=
onsibility of the unofficial contents.

=C2=A0
I thought about this overnight (!) and specifically about one rule: as peop=
le discuss about language, is it wise to allow discussions to be in Lojban =
only? Maybe a common rule of requiring a (rough?) translation in another "r=
eference" language would help. Of course, as there are plenty of materials =
in English out there, it seems logical that this would be English, but that=
's not mandatory, I guess.
You known, I'm willing to help but I can only help organizing stuff, and sp=
reading the word. Not much more because of my too recent implication.


I have no problem in discussing Lojban in Lojban. Discussion of Lojban in E=
nglish continued until 2015, and it also worked fine. I personally profit m=
ore from discussion in Lojban as Lojban exercises. I don't know what the ot=
her members of BPFK think about it.
BPFK is currently dying, so it might be worth trying English discussion as =
AED.

=C2=A0
* [side note] *Thank you very much for helping me improving my skills.  =20
   - "li .abu pi'e pa" is just a great idea! I didn't know how to convert t=
he "A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2" levels, so I used a basic "translation". But pu=
tting as if it was a number "A dot 1" of unspecified base is awesome!  =20

   - But what about the "less than"? Can I write "me'i li .abu pi'e pa"?  =
=20


I forgot taking your word {me'a}. It is a function word of part of speech B=
AI, and related to {mleca}. {me'a X} means therefore that X is less than so=
mething involved in the meaning of the statement.
If you wanted to say "less than X" using a function word of BAI, {mau X} or=
 {se me'a X} would be suitable.
In my expression, it should be replaced by {me'i} just after {li}:li me'i .=
abu pi'e pa

=C2=A0
  =20
   -=20
   - My bad about "fo" (and not "fi"): I was counting "fa" from x2 instead =
of x1, as for "se" (because there is no "x1 <-> x1" swapping cmavo), so I h=
ad an offset of 1. I mixed up counting rules!  =20

  =20
   - Note : I thought "me'a..." was a sumti place, but parser told me it's =
a modal. So I guess I cannot use it, or else "le ropno bangu bo manri" woul=
d fall in m3 place (units) of "kamjunmre".
  =20
   - Finally, your last sentence is too obscure for my level! What I unders=
tand: "One cannot say `I'm never wrong`. I can only wish (???)".


By my last sentence {i na'i ma'i mi na'e toldra i po'o .au sajgau do lo xau=
zma be fi mi}, I meant "well, from my point of view, you are not wrong. I o=
nly want to let you know something better according to me."
=C2=A0
ki'ecai


(You may want to insert {do'u}, {i}, {mi'e} or any other words for separati=
on here, otherwise you are thanking you.)
=C2=A0
la .sykyndyr.


mu'o mi'e la guskant=C2=A0

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
 =20

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

------=_Part_4644201_1909536242.1510075760689
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><head></head><body><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetic=
a, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div></div>
            <div>A comment in a recent note suggests that folks have been d=
iddling with {le} and {lo} yet again (still?). &nbsp;As someone who devoted=
 several pounds of paper (virtual, of course) to that issue over the last 4=
0 years, I am curious to new hat the latest turn is. &nbsp;When last I look=
ed, {le x} was a term &nbsp;that arbitrarily designed a node with a pragmat=
ic (but not necessarily semantic ) link to x. &nbsp;{lo x} designated the s=
alient node in the matrix generated by part-whole on the set of xs. &nbsp;W=
hat are the new wrinkles?</div><div>pycyn</div><div><br></div><div><br></di=
v>
           =20
            <div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_0669068107" class=3D"yahoo_quoted">
                <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Aria=
l, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
                   =20
                    <div>
                        On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 10:40:41 AM CST, gusk=
ant &lt;gusni.kantu@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
                    </div>
                    <div><br></div>
                    <div><br></div>
                    <div><div id=3D"yiv8093058664"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><b=
r clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Le mardi 7 novembre 2017 08:49:56 UTC, =
Benoit Neil a =C3=A9crit&nbsp;:<blockquote class=3D"yiv8093058664gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-l=
eft:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>doi la .guskant.</div><div><br clear=3D"non=
e"></div><div>Thanks for the links. That seems interesting, but I just can'=
t read big Lojban discussions: it took me days (yeah, from time to time, no=
t continuously!) to read and understand 100% of this famous "la .teris."!</=
div><div>My current level is one of the reasons why I'm absolutely not read=
y to enter any board or committee.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div=
></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><=
div>BPFK decided in 2015 to talk in Lojban, but LLG meeting is still talked=
 in English. Some of LLG members are not fluent in Lojban. The LLG meeting =
is held on a private mailing list, and anyone can attend the meeting by sub=
scribing to the list:</div><div>http://mail.lojban.org/mailman/listinfo/llg=
-members</div><div>You can even request the membership of LLG voting member=
.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"=
yiv8093058664gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1=
px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>Is there =
an HTML version somewhere so that everyone can access it without developer =
tools?</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></blockquote><div><br clear=
=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>HTML version of what?</d=
iv><div>BPFK and LLG are held in mailing list, and Lojban Coders' Group is =
held on Github. I don't find any other version of meeting minutes.</div><di=
v><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>&nbsp;</div><=
blockquote class=3D"yiv8093058664gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left=
:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>=
</div><div><font size=3D"4"><b>* Paralysis *</b></font></div><div>So, accor=
ding to what you say, BPFK is really paralyzed. When you want to rely on so=
meone's work, well, (s)he might simply be overloaded with other tasks and m=
ay never answer. It seems that there are no "replacement" guys/gals: if one=
 is not able to perform a task, whatever the reason, then nobody can replac=
e him/her. Do you think so too?</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></=
blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div=
>Yes.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=
=3D"yiv8093058664gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>It fe=
els so dramatic to me that you've lost hope. It is exactly what I feared: a=
nyone can do whatever, in whatever direction. That's freedom. That's not wr=
ong in itself. But... nothing more? Ideas create "explosions" and there is =
no structure at all to make all of this collapse to something better and or=
ganized?</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></blockquote><div><br cle=
ar=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>I made some critical r=
emarks on the CLL Lojban, and someone agreed, but finally I did not receive=
 enough reaction for including any ideas of them into the CLL:</div><div><b=
r clear=3D"none"></div><div>https://mw.lojban.org/papri/gadri:_an_unofficia=
l_commentary_from_a_logical_point_of_view</div><div>(written in 2014)</div>=
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>https://mw.lojban.org/papri/BPFK_Section=
:_Complement_to_causation_sumtcita</div><div>(written in 2015)</div><div><b=
r clear=3D"none"></div><div>https://mw.lojban.org/papri/na_go'i</div><div>(=
written in 2016)</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"=
></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv8093058664gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex=
;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>You told your efforts were blocked by s=
ome people. Were there discussions (I mean enough discussions)? Voting? Eno=
ugh participants in voting? Enough time for the committee to work on propos=
als?</div><div><ul><li>If so, maybe there is something to do with structure=
s (as said above)?<br clear=3D"none"></li><li>If not, maybe all committee m=
embers should accept the fact that language will evolve?<br clear=3D"none">=
</li></ul></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></blockquote><div><br c=
lear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Some of the issues w=
ere discussed, I think enough, but not brought to voting. As for the others=
, discussion was stopped in midway. I think the problem is caused by the st=
ructure of the committee.&nbsp;</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>&nb=
sp;</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv8093058664gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;m=
argin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"=
ltr"><div></div><div><font size=3D"4"><b>* Funds *</b></font></div><div>As =
I just told to Gleki : "even if many Lojbanists are enthusiasts, they all n=
eed money to live and cannot work for free indefinitely".</div><div>You kno=
w, some guy on the Facebook group (=D0=A1=D0=B5=D1=80=D0=B3=D0=B5=D0=B9 =D0=
=98=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=B8=D0=BD=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B8=D1=85) asked if "crypto-curre=
ncy rewards" could be an idea for translations jobs. At first I thought thi=
s was not very useful, and surely complex to set up. However, I feel now th=
at the idea behind this (money to encourage people working on Lojban stuff)=
 may be one of the "energy sources" that would change the game. Of course, =
this has to be very carefully handled! But we may imagine something like pe=
riodic small fund raising (donations, crowdfunding, etc.) on one hand, and =
a system putting clear (and small) objectives and rewards on the other hand=
. I feel like the idea has to be enhanced and discussed... But don't you th=
ink it is worth debating on this? This of course would be only some tools t=
o help, and the current organizations would still be there and help.</div><=
div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></d=
iv><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>At least in the current structure of =
committees, any ideas about rewards will be stuck. Rewards should belong to=
 LLG's business, but the LLG meeting is completely died. My motions for res=
cuing official contents were always ignored. They were not even discussed. =
The main part of the meeting consists of roll call, voting for the board me=
mbers, and voting for closing the meeting.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></d=
iv><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"yiv8=
093058664gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #=
ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div><font size=3D=
"4"><b>* Organizations *</b></font></div><div>An by the way, this thread hi=
ghlighted the fact that there are 3 "major" groups down there: LLG, GPFK, a=
nd the Coders Group. Even if history may explain why there are three, the c=
urrent "freezing" status of all may be a signal for changing things. I don'=
t know even 1% of what each did; but <b><u>FROM AFAR</u></b>, it seems that=
 all organizations share some common interests, and may perform better toge=
ther. Of course, merging everyone into a single entity is surely fictional.=
 But they may organize as "subsidiary companies", sharing a purely administ=
rative section with some functional parts (ex: financial as for the previou=
s topic, rule sets, etc.). Do you feel this would be technically possible? =
And would this be desirable and profitable?</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></=
div></div></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none=
"></div><div>I guess those three groups worked like a parent company (LLG) =
and subsidiary companies (BPFK, Lojban Coders' Group) in the past. BPFK was=
 created by LLG in order to complete technical documents. Lojban Coders' Gr=
oup was created by voluntary IT engineers, among which there were members o=
f LLG or BPFK, maybe for creating various tools for learning Lojban.</div><=
div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>Currently, none of them work fine. LLG is=
 died, BPFK is dying, Lojban Coders' Group is mixing official and unofficia=
l contents without mentioning responsibility of the unofficial contents.</d=
iv><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>&nbsp;<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"yiv8093058664gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margi=
n-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"=
><div></div><div>I thought about this overnight (!) and specifically about =
one rule: as people discuss about language, is it wise to allow discussions=
 to be in Lojban only? Maybe a common rule of requiring a (rough?) translat=
ion in another "reference" language would help. Of course, as there are ple=
nty of materials in English out there, it seems logical that this would be =
English, but that's not mandatory, I guess.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></=
div><div>You known, I'm willing to help but I can only help organizing stuf=
f, and spreading the word. Not much more because of my too recent implicati=
on.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></blockquote><div><br clear=3D=
"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>I have no problem in discus=
sing Lojban in Lojban. Discussion of Lojban in English continued until 2015=
, and it also worked fine. I personally profit more from discussion in Lojb=
an as Lojban exercises. I don't know what the other members of BPFK think a=
bout it.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>BPFK is currently dying, s=
o it might be worth trying English discussion as AED.</div><div><br clear=
=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote =
class=3D"yiv8093058664gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>=
<font size=3D"4"><b>* [side note] *</b></font></div><div>Thank you very muc=
h for helping me improving my skills.</div><div><ul><li>"li .abu pi'e pa" i=
s just a great idea! I didn't know how to convert the "A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, =
C2" levels, so I used a basic "translation". But putting as if it was a num=
ber "A dot 1" of unspecified base is awesome!<br clear=3D"none"></li><li>Bu=
t what about the "less than"? Can I write "me'i li .abu pi'e pa"?<br clear=
=3D"none"></li></ul></div></div></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div>=
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>I forgot taking your word {me'a}. It is =
a function word of part of speech BAI, and related to {mleca}. {me'a X} mea=
ns therefore that X is less than something involved in the meaning of the s=
tatement.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>If you wanted to say "les=
s than X" using a function word of BAI, {mau X} or {se me'a X} would be sui=
table.</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>In my expression, it should =
be replaced by {me'i} just after {li}:</div><div>li me'i .abu pi'e pa</div>=
<div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>&nbsp;</di=
v><blockquote class=3D"yiv8093058664gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-l=
eft:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv><ul><li></li><li>My bad about "fo" (and not "fi"): I was counting "fa" f=
rom x2 instead of x1, as for "se" (because there is no "x1 &lt;-&gt; x1" sw=
apping cmavo), so I had an offset of 1. I mixed up counting rules!<br clear=
=3D"none"></li><ul><li>Note : I thought "me'a..." was a sumti place, but pa=
rser told me it's a modal. So I guess I cannot use it, or else "le ropno ba=
ngu bo manri" would fall in m3 place (units) of "kamjunmre".</li></ul><li>F=
inally, your last sentence is too obscure for my level! What I understand: =
"One cannot say `I'm never wrong`. I can only wish (???)".</li></ul></div><=
div></div></div></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=
=3D"none"></div><div>By my last sentence {i na'i ma'i mi na'e toldra i po'o=
 .au sajgau do lo xauzma be fi mi}, I meant "well, from my point of view, y=
ou are not wrong. I only want to let you know something better according to=
 me."</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=
=3D"yiv8093058664gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>ki'ecai</div><di=
v><br clear=3D"none"></div></div></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div=
><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>(You may want to insert {do'u}, {i}, {m=
i'e} or any other words for separation here, otherwise you are thanking you=
.)</div><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D=
"yiv8093058664gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div></div><div>la .syky=
ndyr.</div></div></blockquote><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=
=3D"none"></div><div>mu'o mi'e la guskant</div><div class=3D"yiv8093058664y=
qt2633537889" id=3D"yiv8093058664yqtfd12698"><div>&nbsp;</div></div></div><=
div class=3D"yiv8093058664yqt2633537889" id=3D"yiv8093058664yqtfd95646">

<p></p>

-- <br clear=3D"none">
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br clear=3D"none">
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubsc=
ribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@=
googlegroups.com">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br clear=3D"none=
">
To post to this group, send email to <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" yma=
ilto=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:lo=
jban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br clear=3D"none">
Visit this group at <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" hr=
ef=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban">https://groups.google.com/gro=
up/lojban</a>.<br clear=3D"none">
For more options, visit <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank=
" href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">https://groups.google.com/d/o=
ptout</a>.<br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div></div>
                </div>
            </div></div></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http=
s://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

------=_Part_4644201_1909536242.1510075760689--