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[74.6.129.83]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t48si180127uad.5.2017.11.07.13.18.59 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Nov 2017 13:18:59 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 74.6.129.83 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.6.129.83; X-YMail-OSG: RlJRvQwVM1mFWGHq08RQWa0LRIEzrnPcDq9Y5WsdExQ7LNkr8CrBHML6pg6rrkR ceaDXvwwU0gmf35JTE.ejZHKgrPxHiGhIFMKO6HvgmORwgQv4TMKiBztNBePwPxdiJ3FjFZSnT3Q PIjImvjcNa1F1xgPjb4iCULK.rTA5ZxtE69oPsilc9tNdwveWCQiqaE6gHn1b3gh05j5Eid4_jR1 5LV0QJHcgUJLKsChyySmnVx2.3L_0WuvT3gr.qKO6Ht.GOQzBO0oBXHyCu09RXMs8Z3eqoFJCiS4 blr4ElAPH8cN2hJ_amY14ujLEgHUlek4P8NM_zgDb.YDXTpXjSVlC0Td4n7vIfchxeBN3jmfGaPn Mu98Rc3MjACayNerUgmhkrm0G0dqP9U7wVBBVFYB9W0lek3._JAJqxtzUmeklcCBdeFT_UhkjH9P wO5BKPJ1bWEsEhtrhTzFaMw97sbXzfWFzh6Zk2O2sxfnVCd_TwchQv7oSDGkIJPXS8wEGzkaHhKK ucWumnqQJTGwT1kiUgTxBHHQ849ZtSKa6i2WnlHBF Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic317.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Tue, 7 Nov 2017 21:18:59 +0000 Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 21:18:57 +0000 (UTC) From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" To: Message-ID: <1359443618.4877539.1510089537893@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <78156dc5-1fb3-4e9d-992c-a8f30facc4fd@googlegroups.com> <2902921f-abf0-4482-b651-ad78066ec8d5@googlegroups.com> <31152289-ec64-49e4-82c3-bab4ed82cf9a@googlegroups.com> <696697330.4644202.1510075760695@mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4877538_1571290469.1510089537886" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.10849 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_12_6) AppleWebKit/604.3.5 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/11.0.1 Safari/604.3.5 Content-Length: 34971 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com header.s=s2048 header.b=hSCy8syb; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 74.6.129.83 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT sp=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com X-Original-From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: 0.3 (/) X-Spam_score: 0.3 X-Spam_score_int: 3 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam-Report: Spam detection software, running on the system "stodi.digitalkingdom.org", has NOT identified this incoming email as spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: But xorlo is pretty much what I described and is at least a half dozen years old, so hardly counts as recent tinkering.  Of course, people have constantly tinkered with xorlo, but not changed it essentially.  On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 3:09:08 PM CST, Robert Slaughter wrote: [...] Content analysis details: (0.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 URIBL_BLOCKED ADMINISTRATOR NOTICE: The query to URIBL was blocked. See http://wiki.apache.org/spamassassin/DnsBlocklists#dnsbl-block for more information. [URIs: googlegroups.com] -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [209.85.217.188 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3 RBL: Good reputation (+3) [209.85.217.188 listed in wl.mailspike.net] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -1.9 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayes spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature -0.0 RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL Mailspike good senders 2.3 FORGED_MUA_MOZILLA Forged mail pretending to be from Mozilla ------=_Part_4877538_1571290469.1510089537886 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable But xorlo is pretty much what I described and is at least a half dozen yea= rs old, so hardly counts as recent tinkering. =C2=A0Of course, people have = constantly tinkered with xorlo, but not changed it essentially.=C2=A0 On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 3:09:08 PM CST, Robert Slaughter wrote: =20 =20 PC, the only update to le/lo that I am aware of is 'xorlo', written up her= e:=C2=A0https://mw.lojban.org/papri/How_to_use_xorlo ----Bob Slaughterhttp://www.facebook.com/robert.s.slaughter=C2=A0"The price= good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men= ." -- Plato"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men = do nothing." -- Edmund Burke"The world is a dangerous place, not because of= those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing." -- Al= bert Einstein"Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courag= e on the part of the good." -- Pope Leo XIII, encyclical 'On Christians as = Citizens' On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 12:29 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: A comment in a recent note suggests that folks have been diddling with {le= } and {lo} yet again (still?).=C2=A0 As someone who devoted several pounds = of paper (virtual, of course) to that issue over the last 40 years, I am cu= rious to new hat the latest turn is.=C2=A0 When last I looked, {le x} was a= term =C2=A0that arbitrarily designed a node with a pragmatic (but not nece= ssarily semantic ) link to x. =C2=A0{lo x} designated the salient node in t= he matrix generated by part-whole on the set of xs.=C2=A0 What are the new = wrinkles?pycyn On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 10:40:41 AM CST, guskant wrote: =20 =20 =20 Le mardi 7 novembre 2017 08:49:56 UTC, Benoit Neil a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0: doi la .guskant. Thanks for the links. That seems interesting, but I just can't read big Loj= ban discussions: it took me days (yeah, from time to time, not continuously= !) to read and understand 100% of this famous "la .teris."!My current level= is one of the reasons why I'm absolutely not ready to enter any board or c= ommittee. BPFK decided in 2015 to talk in Lojban, but LLG meeting is still talked in = English. Some of LLG members are not fluent in Lojban. The LLG meeting is h= eld on a private mailing list, and anyone can attend the meeting by subscri= bing to the list:http://mail.lojban.org/ mailman/listinfo/llg-membersYou ca= n even request the membership of LLG voting member. =C2=A0 Is there an HTML version somewhere so that everyone can access it without d= eveloper tools? HTML version of what?BPFK and LLG are held in mailing list, and Lojban Code= rs' Group is held on Github. I don't find any other version of meeting minu= tes. =C2=A0 * Paralysis *So, according to what you say, BPFK is really paralyzed. When = you want to rely on someone's work, well, (s)he might simply be overloaded = with other tasks and may never answer. It seems that there are no "replacem= ent" guys/gals: if one is not able to perform a task, whatever the reason, = then nobody can replace him/her. Do you think so too? Yes. =C2=A0 It feels so dramatic to me that you've lost hope. It is exactly what I fear= ed: anyone can do whatever, in whatever direction. That's freedom. That's n= ot wrong in itself. But... nothing more? Ideas create "explosions" and ther= e is no structure at all to make all of this collapse to something better a= nd organized? I made some critical remarks on the CLL Lojban, and someone agreed, but fin= ally I did not receive enough reaction for including any ideas of them into= the CLL: https://mw.lojban.org/papri/ gadri:_an_unofficial_ commentary_from_a_logica= l_ point_of_view(written in 2014) https://mw.lojban.org/papri/ BPFK_Section:_Complement_to_ causation_sumtcit= a(written in 2015) https://mw.lojban.org/papri/ na_go'i(written in 2016) =C2=A0 You told your efforts were blocked by some people. Were there discussions (= I mean enough discussions)? Voting? Enough participants in voting? Enough t= ime for the committee to work on proposals? =20 - If so, maybe there is something to do with structures (as said above)?= =20 - If not, maybe all committee members should accept the fact that langua= ge will evolve? =20 Some of the issues were discussed, I think enough, but not brought to votin= g. As for the others, discussion was stopped in midway. I think the problem= is caused by the structure of the committee.=C2=A0 =C2=A0 * Funds *As I just told to Gleki : "even if many Lojbanists are enthusiasts= , they all need money to live and cannot work for free indefinitely".You kn= ow, some guy on the Facebook group (=D0=A1=D0=B5=D1=80=D0=B3=D0=B5=D0=B9 = =D0=98=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=B8=D0=BD=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B8=D1=85) asked if "crypto-cu= rrency rewards" could be an idea for translations jobs. At first I thought = this was not very useful, and surely complex to set up. However, I feel now= that the idea behind this (money to encourage people working on Lojban stu= ff) may be one of the "energy sources" that would change the game. Of cours= e, this has to be very carefully handled! But we may imagine something like= periodic small fund raising (donations, crowdfunding, etc.) on one hand, a= nd a system putting clear (and small) objectives and rewards on the other h= and. I feel like the idea has to be enhanced and discussed... But don't you= think it is worth debating on this? This of course would be only some tool= s to help, and the current organizations would still be there and help. At least in the current structure of committees, any ideas about rewards wi= ll be stuck. Rewards should belong to LLG's business, but the LLG meeting i= s completely died. My motions for rescuing official contents were always ig= nored. They were not even discussed. The main part of the meeting consists = of roll call, voting for the board members, and voting for closing the meet= ing. =C2=A0 * Organizations *An by the way, this thread highlighted the fact that there= are 3 "major" groups down there: LLG, GPFK, and the Coders Group. Even if = history may explain why there are three, the current "freezing" status of a= ll may be a signal for changing things. I don't know even 1% of what each d= id; but FROM AFAR, it seems that all organizations share some common intere= sts, and may perform better together. Of course, merging everyone into a si= ngle entity is surely fictional. But they may organize as "subsidiary compa= nies", sharing a purely administrative section with some functional parts (= ex: financial as for the previous topic, rule sets, etc.). Do you feel this= would be technically possible? And would this be desirable and profitable? I guess those three groups worked like a parent company (LLG) and subsidiar= y companies (BPFK, Lojban Coders' Group) in the past. BPFK was created by L= LG in order to complete technical documents. Lojban Coders' Group was creat= ed by voluntary IT engineers, among which there were members of LLG or BPFK= , maybe for creating various tools for learning Lojban. Currently, none of them work fine. LLG is died, BPFK is dying, Lojban Coder= s' Group is mixing official and unofficial contents without mentioning resp= onsibility of the unofficial contents. =C2=A0 I thought about this overnight (!) and specifically about one rule: as peop= le discuss about language, is it wise to allow discussions to be in Lojban = only? Maybe a common rule of requiring a (rough?) translation in another "r= eference" language would help. Of course, as there are plenty of materials = in English out there, it seems logical that this would be English, but that= 's not mandatory, I guess. You known, I'm willing to help but I can only help organizing stuff, and sp= reading the word. Not much more because of my too recent implication. I have no problem in discussing Lojban in Lojban. Discussion of Lojban in E= nglish continued until 2015, and it also worked fine. I personally profit m= ore from discussion in Lojban as Lojban exercises. I don't know what the ot= her members of BPFK think about it. BPFK is currently dying, so it might be worth trying English discussion as = AED. =C2=A0 * [side note] *Thank you very much for helping me improving my skills. =20 - "li .abu pi'e pa" is just a great idea! I didn't know how to convert t= he "A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2" levels, so I used a basic "translation". But pu= tting as if it was a number "A dot 1" of unspecified base is awesome! =20 - But what about the "less than"? Can I write "me'i li .abu pi'e pa"? = =20 I forgot taking your word {me'a}. It is a function word of part of speech B= AI, and related to {mleca}. {me'a X} means therefore that X is less than so= mething involved in the meaning of the statement. If you wanted to say "less than X" using a function word of BAI, {mau X} or= {se me'a X} would be suitable. In my expression, it should be replaced by {me'i} just after {li}:li me'i .= abu pi'e pa =C2=A0 =20 -=20 - My bad about "fo" (and not "fi"): I was counting "fa" from x2 instead = of x1, as for "se" (because there is no "x1 <-> x1" swapping cmavo), so I h= ad an offset of 1. I mixed up counting rules! =20 =20 - Note : I thought "me'a..." was a sumti place, but parser told me it's = a modal. So I guess I cannot use it, or else "le ropno bangu bo manri" woul= d fall in m3 place (units) of "kamjunmre". =20 - Finally, your last sentence is too obscure for my level! What I unders= tand: "One cannot say `I'm never wrong`. I can only wish (???)". By my last sentence {i na'i ma'i mi na'e toldra i po'o .au sajgau do lo xau= zma be fi mi}, I meant "well, from my point of view, you are not wrong. I o= nly want to let you know something better according to me." =C2=A0 ki'ecai (You may want to insert {do'u}, {i}, {mi'e} or any other words for separati= on here, otherwise you are thanking you.) =C2=A0 la .sykyndyr. mu'o mi'e la guskant=C2=A0 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@ googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/ group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ optout. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@ googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/ group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_4877538_1571290469.1510089537886 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
But xorlo is pretty much what I described and is at least = a half dozen years old, so hardly counts as recent tinkering.  Of cour= se, people have constantly tinkered with xorlo, but not changed it essentia= lly. 

=20
=20
On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 3:09:08 PM CST, Rober= t Slaughter <robert.s.slaughter@gmail.com> wrote:


PC= , the only update to le/lo that I am aware of is 'xorlo', written up here:&= nbsp;https://mw.lojban.org/papri/How_to_use= _xorlo



On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 = at 12:29 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com= > wrote:
A comment in a recent note suggests that folks have been d= iddling with {le} and {lo} yet again (still?).  As someone who devoted= several pounds of paper (virtual, of course) to that issue over the last 4= 0 years, I am curious to new hat the latest turn is.  When last I look= ed, {le x} was a term  that arbitrarily designed a node with a pragmat= ic (but not necessarily semantic ) link to x.  {lo x} designated the s= alient node in the matrix generated by part-whole on the set of xs.  W= hat are the new wrinkles?
pycyn


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=20
On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 10:40:41 AM CST, gusk= ant <gusni.kant= u@gmail.com> wrote:




Le m= ardi 7 novembre 2017 08:49:56 UTC, Benoit Neil a =C3=A9crit :
doi la .guskant.

Thanks for the links. That seems interesting, but I just can't rea= d big Lojban discussions: it took me days (yeah, from time to time, not con= tinuously!) to read and understand 100% of this famous "la .teris."!
<= div>My current level is one of the reasons why I'm absolutely not ready to = enter any board or committee.



B= PFK decided in 2015 to talk in Lojban, but LLG meeting is still talked in E= nglish. Some of LLG members are not fluent in Lojban. The LLG meeting is he= ld on a private mailing list, and anyone can attend the meeting by subscrib= ing to the list:
You can even requ= est the membership of LLG voting member.

 
Is there a= n HTML version somewhere so that everyone can access it without developer t= ools?



HTML version of what?
BPFK and LLG are held in mailing list, and Lojban Coders' Group is = held on Github. I don't find any other version of meeting minutes.


 
<= blockquote class=3D"yiv2951353993m_-2436283441802202162yiv8093058664gmail_q= uote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;paddin= g-left:1ex;">
* Paralys= is *
So, according to what you say, BPFK is really par= alyzed. When you want to rely on someone's work, well, (s)he might simply b= e overloaded with other tasks and may never answer. It seems that there are= no "replacement" guys/gals: if one is not able to perform a task, whatever= the reason, then nobody can replace him/her. Do you think so too?



Yes.

 
It feels s= o dramatic to me that you've lost hope. It is exactly what I feared: anyone= can do whatever, in whatever direction. That's freedom. That's not wrong i= n itself. But... nothing more? Ideas create "explosions" and there is no st= ructure at all to make all of this collapse to something better and organiz= ed?



I made some critical remark= s on the CLL Lojban, and someone agreed, but finally I did not receive enou= gh reaction for including any ideas of them into the CLL:

(written in 2014)

(written in 2015)

(written in 2016)


 
You told your efforts were blocked by some people. Were= there discussions (I mean enough discussions)? Voting? Enough participants= in voting? Enough time for the committee to work on proposals?
<= ul>
  • If so, maybe there is something to do with structures (as said above= )?
  • If not, maybe all committee members should ac= cept the fact that language will evolve?
    • =



    Some of the issues were discussed, I= think enough, but not brought to voting. As for the others, discussion was= stopped in midway. I think the problem is caused by the structure of the c= ommittee. 

     
    * Funds *
    As I just told to Gleki : "even if many Lojbanists are enth= usiasts, they all need money to live and cannot work for free indefinitely"= .
    You know, some guy on the Facebook group (=D0=A1=D0=B5=D1=80=D0= =B3=D0=B5=D0=B9 =D0=98=D0=BB=D1=8C=D0=B8=D0=BD=D1=81=D0=BA=D0=B8=D1=85) ask= ed if "crypto-currency rewards" could be an idea for translations jobs. At = first I thought this was not very useful, and surely complex to set up. How= ever, I feel now that the idea behind this (money to encourage people worki= ng on Lojban stuff) may be one of the "energy sources" that would change th= e game. Of course, this has to be very carefully handled! But we may imagin= e something like periodic small fund raising (donations, crowdfunding, etc.= ) on one hand, and a system putting clear (and small) objectives and reward= s on the other hand. I feel like the idea has to be enhanced and discussed.= .. But don't you think it is worth debating on this? This of course would b= e only some tools to help, and the current organizations would still be the= re and help.


    At least in the cu= rrent structure of committees, any ideas about rewards will be stuck. Rewar= ds should belong to LLG's business, but the LLG meeting is completely died.= My motions for rescuing official contents were always ignored. They were n= ot even discussed. The main part of the meeting consists of roll call, voti= ng for the board members, and voting for closing the meeting.

     
    * Organization= s *
    An by the way, this thread highlighted the fact th= at there are 3 "major" groups down there: LLG, GPFK, and the Coders Group. = Even if history may explain why there are three, the current "freezing" sta= tus of all may be a signal for changing things. I don't know even 1% of wha= t each did; but FROM AFAR, it seems that all organizations sh= are some common interests, and may perform better together. Of course, merg= ing everyone into a single entity is surely fictional. But they may organiz= e as "subsidiary companies", sharing a purely administrative section with s= ome functional parts (ex: financial as for the previous topic, rule sets, e= tc.). Do you feel this would be technically possible? And would this be des= irable and profitable?



    I guess = those three groups worked like a parent company (LLG) and subsidiary compan= ies (BPFK, Lojban Coders' Group) in the past. BPFK was created by LLG in or= der to complete technical documents. Lojban Coders' Group was created by vo= luntary IT engineers, among which there were members of LLG or BPFK, maybe = for creating various tools for learning Lojban.

    Currently, none of them work fine. LLG is died, BPFK is dying,= Lojban Coders' Group is mixing official and unofficial contents without me= ntioning responsibility of the unofficial contents.


     
    I thought about this overnight (!) and speci= fically about one rule: as people discuss about language, is it wise to all= ow discussions to be in Lojban only? Maybe a common rule of requiring a (ro= ugh?) translation in another "reference" language would help. Of course, as= there are plenty of materials in English out there, it seems logical that = this would be English, but that's not mandatory, I guess.

    You known, I'm willing to help but I can only help o= rganizing stuff, and spreading the word. Not much more because of my too re= cent implication.



    I have no pro= blem in discussing Lojban in Lojban. Discussion of Lojban in English contin= ued until 2015, and it also worked fine. I personally profit more from disc= ussion in Lojban as Lojban exercises. I don't know what the other members o= f BPFK think about it.

    BPFK is curr= ently dying, so it might be worth trying English discussion as AED.


     
    =
    * [side = note] *
    Thank you very much for helping me improving m= y skills.
    • "li .abu pi'e pa" is just a great idea! I didn'= t know how to convert the "A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2" levels, so I used a basi= c "translation". But putting as if it was a number "A dot 1" of unspecified= base is awesome!
    • But what about the "less than"= ? Can I write "me'i li .abu pi'e pa"?


    I forgot taking your word {me'a}. It is a function word of part of sp= eech BAI, and related to {mleca}. {me'a X} means therefore that X is less t= han something involved in the meaning of the statement.

    If you wanted to say "less than X" using a function wo= rd of BAI, {mau X} or {se me'a X} would be suitable.

    In my expression, it should be replaced by {me'i} just af= ter {li}:
    li me'i .abu pi'e pa


     
    • My bad about "fo" (and not "fi"): I was counting = "fa" from x2 instead of x1, as for "se" (because there is no "x1 <-> = x1" swapping cmavo), so I had an offset of 1. I mixed up counting rules!
      • Note : I thought "me'a..." was a sumti place, = but parser told me it's a modal. So I guess I cannot use it, or else "le ro= pno bangu bo manri" would fall in m3 place (units) of "kamjunmre".
      • Finally, your last sentence is too obscure for my level! What I unders= tand: "One cannot say `I'm never wrong`. I can only wish (???)".
      <= /div>


    By my last sentence {i na'i ma'i mi na'e toldra i = po'o .au sajgau do lo xauzma be fi mi}, I meant "well, from my point of vie= w, you are not wrong. I only want to let you know something better accordin= g to me."

     
    ki'ecai



    (You may want to insert {do'u}, {i}, {mi'e} or any other words for separat= ion here, otherwise you are thanking you.)

     
    la .syky= ndyr.


    mu'o mi'e la guskant
     

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