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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 21:26:58 +0000 (UTC)
From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
To: <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
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 So MA's point seems to be that the Lojban project is impossible by the nat=
ure of language, since, evenif we do eventually create a language that meet=
s the ideal, as soon as people learn it, it will fall away into ordinarines=
s again. =C2=A0The only possible ways out seem to be to believe that change=
s in the language will always be merely to vocabulary, never to grammar, or=
 that every change in the grammar can be met with a compensating that resto=
res the old system or creates a new one just as good. =C2=A0Both of those h=
opes seem as unlikely as no change at all. =C2=A0So, the goal of Lojban is =
create once the ideal language, then pickle it forever as a display.

    On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 2:23:35 PM CST, MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@g=
mail.com> wrote: =20
=20
 It's that 3rd point, the reintegration into the core, which I see as unten=
able.=C2=A0
And what constitutes the core, anyway?=C2=A0
Learning things about the language that only fluent speakers can know means=
 the language will be improvable in ways the original designers couldn't ha=
ve anticipated (or they would have). Therefore change is inevitable. What's=
 not likely, though, is that the change will keep the language unified, eve=
n backward-compatible. Something along the way (an imperfection in the orig=
inal design) will become broken when the change occurs, and this is unavoid=
able.=C2=A0
For those who want to learn a language that will never change, pick somethi=
ng like Sanskrit or Middle Egyptian. Languages MUST change to stay alive.=
=C2=A0
stevo

|  | Virus-free. www.avast.com  |


On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 3:51 AM, <sukender1@gmail.com> wrote:

@stevo: Sorry I don't understand the "make it the same as it was before". F=
rom my point of view:  =20
   - Establishing language rules "forever" is not possible. Therefore some =
changes will be necessary. This is what called "evolution".
   - Forking may be interesting. It may be an pure experiment, a "feature b=
ranch", a fix, etc.
   - Reintegrating a branch to the core actually changes the core! This is =
why it must be done very carefully, in order to not break initial intents o=
f the language.
I hope I mad myself clearer :-)


Le mardi 7 novembre 2017 09:59:20 UTC+1, stevo a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
sykynder: You mention re-integrating forks back into the core language. How=
 do you change something and then make it the same as it was before? And wh=
y would you want to?=C2=A0=C2=A0stevo


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<html><head></head><body><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetic=
a, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div></div>
            <div>So MA's point seems to be that the Lojban project is impos=
sible by the nature of language, since, evenif we do eventually create a la=
nguage that meets the ideal, as soon as people learn it, it will fall away =
into ordinariness again. &nbsp;The only possible ways out seem to be to bel=
ieve that changes in the language will always be merely to vocabulary, neve=
r to grammar, or that every change in the grammar can be met with a compens=
ating that restores the old system or creates a new one just as good. &nbsp=
;Both of those hopes seem as unlikely as no change at all. &nbsp;</div><div=
>So, the goal of Lojban is create once the ideal language, then pickle it f=
orever as a display.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
           =20
            <div id=3D"yahoo_quoted_0318392735" class=3D"yahoo_quoted">
                <div style=3D"font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Aria=
l, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
                   =20
                    <div>
                        On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 2:23:35 PM CST, Morph=
emeAddict &lt;lytlesw@gmail.com&gt; wrote:
                    </div>
                    <div><br></div>
                    <div><br></div>
                    <div><div id=3D"yiv0606645742"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><d=
iv class=3D"yiv0606645742gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new, m=
onospace;">It's that 3rd point, the reintegration into the core, which I se=
e as untenable.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"yiv0606645742gmail_default" style=
=3D"font-family:courier new, monospace;"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div clas=
s=3D"yiv0606645742gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new, monospac=
e;">And what constitutes the core, anyway?&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"yiv0606=
645742gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new, monospace;"><br clea=
r=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"yiv0606645742gmail_default" style=3D"font-fa=
mily:courier new, monospace;">Learning things about the language that only =
fluent speakers can know means the language will be improvable in ways the =
original designers couldn't have anticipated (or they would have). Therefor=
e change is inevitable. What's not likely, though, is that the change will =
keep the language unified, even backward-compatible. Something along the wa=
y (an imperfection in the original design) will become broken when the chan=
ge occurs, and this is unavoidable.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"yiv0606645742g=
mail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new, monospace;"><br clear=3D"no=
ne"></div><div class=3D"yiv0606645742gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:co=
urier new, monospace;">For those who want to learn a language that will nev=
er change, pick something like Sanskrit or Middle Egyptian. Languages MUST =
change to stay alive.&nbsp;</div><div class=3D"yiv0606645742gmail_default" =
style=3D"font-family:courier new, monospace;"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div=
 class=3D"yiv0606645742gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new, mon=
ospace;">stevo</div></div><div id=3D"yiv0606645742DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4=
E2AA1F9FDF2"><br clear=3D"none">
<table style=3D"border-top:1px solid #d3d4de;"><tbody><tr><td colspan=3D"1"=
 rowspan=3D"1" style=3D"width:55px;padding-top:13px;"><a rel=3D"nofollow" s=
hape=3D"rect" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm=
_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dlink&amp;utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&amp;utm_=
content=3Dwebmail&amp;utm_term=3Dicon"><img src=3D"https://ipmcdn.avast.com=
/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" al=
t=3D"" width=3D"46" height=3D"29" style=3D"width:46px;min-height:29px;"></a=
></td><td colspan=3D"1" rowspan=3D"1" style=3D"width:470px;padding-top:12px=
;color:#41424e;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;line=
-height:18px;">Virus-free. <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" target=3D"_bl=
ank" href=3D"https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_sou=
rce=3Dlink&amp;utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&amp;utm_content=3Dwebmail&amp;utm_t=
erm=3Dlink" style=3D"color:#4453ea;">www.avast.com</a>
		</td></tr></tbody></table><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"#DAB=
4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"></a></div><div class=3D"yiv0606645742yqt=
1462067138" id=3D"yiv0606645742yqt54850"><div class=3D"yiv0606645742gmail_e=
xtra"><br clear=3D"none"><div class=3D"yiv0606645742gmail_quote">On Tue, No=
v 7, 2017 at 3:51 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"r=
ect" ymailto=3D"mailto:sukender1@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailt=
o:sukender1@gmail.com">sukender1@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br clear=
=3D"none"><blockquote class=3D"yiv0606645742gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 =
0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><di=
v>@stevo: Sorry I don't understand the "make it the same as it was before".=
 From my point of view:</div><div><ul><li>Establishing language rules "fore=
ver" is not possible. Therefore some changes will be necessary. This is wha=
t called "evolution".</li><li>Forking may be interesting. It may be an pure=
 experiment, a "feature branch", a fix, etc.</li><li>Reintegrating a branch=
 to the core actually changes the core! This is why it must be done <b>very=
 carefully</b>, in order to not break initial intents of the language.</li>=
</ul></div>I hope I mad myself clearer :-)<span class=3D"yiv0606645742"></s=
pan><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none=
">Le mardi 7 novembre 2017 09:59:20 UTC+1, stevo a =C3=A9crit&nbsp;:<blockq=
uote class=3D"yiv0606645742gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=
=3D"font-family:courier new, monospace;">sykynder: You mention re-integrati=
ng forks back into the core language. How do you change something and then =
make it the same as it was before? And why would you want to?&nbsp;</div><d=
iv style=3D"font-family:courier new, monospace;">&nbsp;</div><div style=3D"=
font-family:courier new, monospace;">stevo</div></div><div><br clear=3D"non=
e"></div>
</blockquote></div></div><div class=3D"yiv0606645742HOEnZb"><div class=3D"y=
iv0606645742h5">

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