Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400e:c05::235 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400e:c05::235;
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <995476206.4863253.1510090018280@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <ef141db1-9811-4d44-8458-972ddffdd883@googlegroups.com>
 <03cb7058-3183-4b01-96f6-6a58ea2286e4@googlegroups.com> <3a342986-92d1-47e1-a9fe-5f2acb7b3942@googlegroups.com>
 <CAO7bV+j_FAk-Gw5TWVxTP7G+oAQ45nRj6YQ0puCCuwNaUunEhg@mail.gmail.com>
 <a0de15ea-313d-4048-bb97-b2ca457da30c@googlegroups.com> <CAHiXx=P1pWcSu7_nTAGLbjZZCr6otNhaG1V43BVxrBq30o6v3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <4fb750ee-48ab-40ac-9952-1d168bbba829@googlegroups.com> <CAHiXx=M9CwDGR0SXd5wMjzXNVL6Smxf7q7Kn+K+tO213X29E+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <995476206.4863253.1510090018280@mail.yahoo.com>
From: MorphemeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2017 18:15:39 -0600
Message-ID: <CAHiXx=MtcB2-HdvCiGsQqm+VQvuZjkMxT6Lz-Ji8V1q7obR1Cg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c112e4a3d266e055d6d9899"
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
X-Spam_score: -1.2
X-Spam_score_int: -11
X-Spam_bar: -

--94eb2c112e4a3d266e055d6d9899
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

No, not "fall into ordinariness again". Rather, it will be improved to fix
or remove the problems discovered by the fluent speakers that weren't known
to the designers. A constant progression to a better language.

stevo

<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&utm_c=
ampaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Dwebmail&utm_term=3Dicon>
Virus-free.
www.avast.com
<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&utm_c=
ampaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Dwebmail&utm_term=3Dlink>
<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 3:26 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <
lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> So MA's point seems to be that the Lojban project is impossible by the
> nature of language, since, evenif we do eventually create a language that
> meets the ideal, as soon as people learn it, it will fall away into
> ordinariness again.  The only possible ways out seem to be to believe tha=
t
> changes in the language will always be merely to vocabulary, never to
> grammar, or that every change in the grammar can be met with a compensati=
ng
> that restores the old system or creates a new one just as good.  Both of
> those hopes seem as unlikely as no change at all.
> So, the goal of Lojban is create once the ideal language, then pickle it
> forever as a display.
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 2:23:35 PM CST, MorphemeAddict <
> lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> It's that 3rd point, the reintegration into the core, which I see as
> untenable.
>
> And what constitutes the core, anyway?
>
> Learning things about the language that only fluent speakers can know
> means the language will be improvable in ways the original designers
> couldn't have anticipated (or they would have). Therefore change is
> inevitable. What's not likely, though, is that the change will keep the
> language unified, even backward-compatible. Something along the way (an
> imperfection in the original design) will become broken when the change
> occurs, and this is unavoidable.
>
> For those who want to learn a language that will never change, pick
> something like Sanskrit or Middle Egyptian. Languages MUST change to stay
> alive.
>
> stevo
>
>
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&utm=
_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Dwebmail&utm_term=3Dicon> Virus-free.
> www.avast.com
> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dlink&utm=
_campaign=3Dsig-email&utm_content=3Dwebmail&utm_term=3Dlink>
> <#m_-3428113237757975305_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>
> On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 3:51 AM, <sukender1@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> @stevo: Sorry I don't understand the "make it the same as it was before".
> From my point of view:
>
>    - Establishing language rules "forever" is not possible. Therefore
>    some changes will be necessary. This is what called "evolution".
>    - Forking may be interesting. It may be an pure experiment, a "feature
>    branch", a fix, etc.
>    - Reintegrating a branch to the core actually changes the core! This
>    is why it must be done *very carefully*, in order to not break initial
>    intents of the language.
>
> I hope I mad myself clearer :-)
>
>
>
> Le mardi 7 novembre 2017 09:59:20 UTC+1, stevo a =C3=A9crit :
>
> sykynder: You mention re-integrating forks back into the core language.
> How do you change something and then make it the same as it was before? A=
nd
> why would you want to?
>
> stevo
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@ googlegroups.com
> <lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/ group/lojban
> <https://groups.google.com/group/lojban>.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ optout
> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>.
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--94eb2c112e4a3d266e055d6d9899
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier =
new,monospace">No, not &quot;fall into ordinariness again&quot;. Rather, it=
 will be improved to fix or remove the problems discovered by the fluent sp=
eakers that weren&#39;t known to the designers. A constant progression to a=
 better language.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"font-fam=
ily:courier new,monospace"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"=
font-family:courier new,monospace">stevo=C2=A0</div></div><div id=3D"DAB4FA=
D8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br>
<table style=3D"border-top:1px solid #d3d4de">
	<tr>
        <td style=3D"width:55px;padding-top:13px"><a href=3D"https://www.av=
ast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dlink&amp;utm_campaign=
=3Dsig-email&amp;utm_content=3Dwebmail&amp;utm_term=3Dicon" target=3D"_blan=
k"><img src=3D"https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-rou=
nd-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt=3D"" width=3D"46" height=3D"29" st=
yle=3D"width: 46px; height: 29px;"></a></td>
		<td style=3D"width:470px;padding-top:12px;color:#41424e;font-size:13px;fo=
nt-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-height:18px">Virus-free. <a href=
=3D"https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dlin=
k&amp;utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&amp;utm_content=3Dwebmail&amp;utm_term=3Dlin=
k" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color:#4453ea">www.avast.com</a>
		</td>
	</tr>
</table><a href=3D"#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width=3D"1" heigh=
t=3D"1"></a></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"=
>On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 3:26 PM, &#39;John E Clifford&#39; via lojban <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div><div style=3D"font-family:Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,sans-=
serif;font-size:13px"><div></div>
            <div>So MA&#39;s point seems to be that the Lojban project is i=
mpossible by the nature of language, since, evenif we do eventually create =
a language that meets the ideal, as soon as people learn it, it will fall a=
way into ordinariness again.=C2=A0 The only possible ways out seem to be to=
 believe that changes in the language will always be merely to vocabulary, =
never to grammar, or that every change in the grammar can be met with a com=
pensating that restores the old system or creates a new one just as good.=
=C2=A0 Both of those hopes seem as unlikely as no change at all. =C2=A0</di=
v><div>So, the goal of Lojban is create once the ideal language, then pickl=
e it forever as a display.</div><div><div class=3D"h5"><div><br></div><div>=
<br></div>
           =20
            <div id=3D"m_-3428113237757975305yahoo_quoted_0318392735" class=
=3D"m_-3428113237757975305yahoo_quoted">
                <div style=3D"font-family:&#39;Helvetica Neue&#39;,Helvetic=
a,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a">
                   =20
                    <div>
                        On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 2:23:35 PM CST, Morph=
emeAddict &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lytlesw@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">lytles=
w@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:
                    </div>
                    <div><br></div>
                    <div><br></div>
                    <div><div id=3D"m_-3428113237757975305yiv0606645742"><d=
iv><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"m_-3428113237757975305yiv0606645742gmail_=
default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">It&#39;s that 3rd poin=
t, the reintegration into the core, which I see as untenable.=C2=A0</div><d=
iv class=3D"m_-3428113237757975305yiv0606645742gmail_default" style=3D"font=
-family:courier new,monospace"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"m_-34=
28113237757975305yiv0606645742gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier n=
ew,monospace">And what constitutes the core, anyway?=C2=A0</div><div class=
=3D"m_-3428113237757975305yiv0606645742gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:=
courier new,monospace"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"m_-3428113237=
757975305yiv0606645742gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,monos=
pace">Learning things about the language that only fluent speakers can know=
 means the language will be improvable in ways the original designers could=
n&#39;t have anticipated (or they would have). Therefore change is inevitab=
le. What&#39;s not likely, though, is that the change will keep the languag=
e unified, even backward-compatible. Something along the way (an imperfecti=
on in the original design) will become broken when the change occurs, and t=
his is unavoidable.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"m_-3428113237757975305yiv06066=
45742gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace"><br clear=
=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"m_-3428113237757975305yiv0606645742gmail_defa=
ult" style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">For those who want to lear=
n a language that will never change, pick something like Sanskrit or Middle=
 Egyptian. Languages MUST change to stay alive.=C2=A0</div><div class=3D"m_=
-3428113237757975305yiv0606645742gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courie=
r new,monospace"><br clear=3D"none"></div><div class=3D"m_-3428113237757975=
305yiv0606645742gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">=
stevo</div></div><div id=3D"m_-3428113237757975305yiv0606645742DAB4FAD8-2DD=
7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br clear=3D"none">
<table style=3D"border-top:1px solid #d3d4de"><tbody><tr><td colspan=3D"1" =
rowspan=3D"1" style=3D"width:55px;padding-top:13px"><a rel=3D"nofollow" sha=
pe=3D"rect" href=3D"https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;=
utm_source=3Dlink&amp;utm_campaign=3Dsig-email&amp;utm_content=3Dwebmail&am=
p;utm_term=3Dicon" target=3D"_blank"><img src=3D"https://ipmcdn.avast.com/i=
mages/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif" alt=
=3D"" width=3D"46" height=3D"29" style=3D"width:46px;min-height:29px"></a><=
/td><td colspan=3D"1" rowspan=3D"1" style=3D"width:470px;padding-top:12px;c=
olor:#41424e;font-size:13px;font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;line-hei=
ght:18px">Virus-free. <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://ww=
w.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=3Demail&amp;utm_source=3Dlink&amp;utm_camp=
aign=3Dsig-email&amp;utm_content=3Dwebmail&amp;utm_term=3Dlink" style=3D"co=
lor:#4453ea" target=3D"_blank">www.avast.com</a>
		</td></tr></tbody></table><a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"#m_-=
3428113237757975305_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"></a></div><div cl=
ass=3D"m_-3428113237757975305yiv0606645742yqt1462067138" id=3D"m_-342811323=
7757975305yiv0606645742yqt54850"><div class=3D"m_-3428113237757975305yiv060=
6645742gmail_extra"><br clear=3D"none"><div class=3D"m_-3428113237757975305=
yiv0606645742gmail_quote">On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 3:51 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:sukender1@gmail.com=
" target=3D"_blank">sukender1@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br clear=3D"n=
one"><blockquote class=3D"m_-3428113237757975305yiv0606645742gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><div>@stevo: Sorry I don&#39;t understand the &quot;make it th=
e same as it was before&quot;. From my point of view:</div><div><ul><li>Est=
ablishing language rules &quot;forever&quot; is not possible. Therefore som=
e changes will be necessary. This is what called &quot;evolution&quot;.</li=
><li>Forking may be interesting. It may be an pure experiment, a &quot;feat=
ure branch&quot;, a fix, etc.</li><li>Reintegrating a branch to the core ac=
tually changes the core! This is why it must be done <b>very carefully</b>,=
 in order to not break initial intents of the language.</li></ul></div>I ho=
pe I mad myself clearer :-)<span class=3D"m_-3428113237757975305yiv06066457=
42"></span><div><br clear=3D"none"></div><div><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=
=3D"none">Le mardi 7 novembre 2017 09:59:20 UTC+1, stevo a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0=
:<blockquote class=3D"m_-3428113237757975305yiv0606645742gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0;margin-left:0.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"=
><div dir=3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">sykynder=
: You mention re-integrating forks back into the core language. How do you =
change something and then make it the same as it was before? And why would =
you want to?=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">=
=C2=A0</div><div style=3D"font-family:courier new,monospace">stevo</div></d=
iv><div><br clear=3D"none"></div>
</blockquote></div></div><div class=3D"m_-3428113237757975305yiv0606645742H=
OEnZb"><div class=3D"m_-3428113237757975305yiv0606645742h5">

<p></p>

-- <br clear=3D"none">
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br clear=3D"none">
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscrib=
e@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban+unsubscribe@ googlegroups.com<=
/a>.<br clear=3D"none">
To post to this group, send email to <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" hre=
f=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.=
com</a>.<br clear=3D"none">
Visit this group at <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://grou=
ps.google.com/group/lojban" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/ gr=
oup/lojban</a>.<br clear=3D"none">
For more options, visit <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://=
groups.google.com/d/optout" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/ =
optout</a>.<br clear=3D"none">
</div></div></blockquote></div><br clear=3D"none"></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br clear=3D"none">
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br clear=3D"none">
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscrib=
e@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban+unsubscribe@<wbr>googlegroups.=
com</a>.<br clear=3D"none">
To post to this group, send email to <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" hre=
f=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.=
com</a>.<br clear=3D"none">
Visit this group at <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://grou=
ps.google.com/group/lojban" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/<wb=
r>group/lojban</a>.<br clear=3D"none">
For more options, visit <a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" href=3D"https://=
groups.google.com/d/optout" target=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/<=
wbr>optout</a>.<br clear=3D"none"></div></div></div>
                </div>
            </div></div></div></div></div><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=
=3D"h5">

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">lojban+unsubscribe@<wbr>googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/<wbr>group/lojban</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/<wbr>optout</a>.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http=
s://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--94eb2c112e4a3d266e055d6d9899--