Received: from mail-it0-f64.google.com ([209.85.214.64]:59389) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1eCENC-0001t1-Ez for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 07 Nov 2017 16:37:44 -0800 Received: by mail-it0-f64.google.com with SMTP id g128sf4005304itb.5 for ; Tue, 07 Nov 2017 16:37:42 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; t=1510101456; cv=pass; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=icoK175FcLW7EE82oLIjJmuyFaj+vQfqs/xzrVkx/96pAnrbQrN/XO6IT5kGn6I+LZ 38xSPV3H3XpUaS5z2Lr+TGbrSCoVyo0lnb33jRE0azv5lqDy7h2D7opb49OEsD0vRiuF 1H2Xutwq/JE3a0LJcqhtHf3H1Ly1uUvHsV2VOJ/09v0YivgtZpcvMqlzh24iKDxhezKr 54txkTac8uaz+X9RMjt7amcb4MRhkVubAnWbyjQ2v2USy2Gh5CGQ0Odl6ESngzVY3uJm NJgg2XlThOnU7NZmxzBR0YDC92CCQVesZ5kC4AmJzAf1Gr+pouuCwqHBObgNn75vF7o+ v1bA== ARC-Message-Signature: i=2; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:reply-to:mime-version:subject :references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date :arc-authentication-results:arc-message-signature:dkim-signature :arc-authentication-results; bh=nayibZW3OAWKVISnEjcgVkuj3nqvelJSdZxuhbkppaU=; b=IDUlxaM1gatHi34rFSg3DOrPPcbTDfkS5fvxGd3cpI/d+3Kja7Jmal+Z6jdIhGh3Mz KdFfgTuRV5837FPuaYxuyQGnCQDYTSxXQZRw82zDDFvb8aPGBuk9HQqL200+c1Q4q7lk YaypdAKeFflB8eQ6jerjj24K8kVGX0NdjWyaB4CvNR+3BBR5rx6zlwzEq3yHJY3meVm2 4UCd5l9MwZKS6pC4nHjZL9JGTRv7tltcCyzmT1i/iyXbei9tmtZ7Mf0DDJSGjdi5Obkk Rbyza/sVE0QY+JFSzsSPTPxgHn4j/vV2lDiBOilMZ3apdHIXIcIRmLjHVo28yJE5RO9V ZoAA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=2; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com header.s=s2048 header.b=kJg8tnF/; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 74.6.128.84 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT sp=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20161025; h=date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references:subject:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=nayibZW3OAWKVISnEjcgVkuj3nqvelJSdZxuhbkppaU=; b=VLK4wdulreWhxAn9IScLi78hoCoj4j3Vh6Lcoei9xlU4J2m/mTZqbC2qBYTo5MxDSJ WnAsv51ZwH7gJ+zUxqHtWJuDjjQhcVLRc6M0qH2NibBpWhM3jbDHOF2sCWrpSA7fSx/Q /M5qPnrG2gVJ0DuJ9WmSOS1Fol9yOyaN2QjYOdD/6IZ/ud4nJFxiyAJ4Ppl+IGcXdIfa 4akYoljCMe/HB4EhdNeXLezWwkg29uC8Dhye+oDoD/j+PoynfLbP5koYl3SZB3mZpvUb ThHO1GPEOnLJkmJm46PVjpTw6CfRLl+nyETZ9iKGCkAiFTOgOdDVX3MHGtJzgmGaT7qR d1ZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:message-id:in-reply-to:references :subject:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-spam-checked-in-group:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe; bh=nayibZW3OAWKVISnEjcgVkuj3nqvelJSdZxuhbkppaU=; b=QzAef/tq7U9gFRjd2asYAUacidBeKpUzrxWTi9eOZzYo8QB+N1oMVUVFrqGIcVMo+P nkq/eL2EfVdAE8hrHzX/BJFdpi8stGPFbhoqFx0QN0Tz+jO55QmKjMk9qiLRPbHPIUFb eybCory7fKMYRJRiFbI1Bkp40x8o2EzQHgjzV9chWnklkuNQOhnO38KtFf+kvipwVt4R 8YlyQEuFCTquPN+u5/olDMrk00lUpsWT9FV/JQg23hu2XmDSrj5qeZGAk4AiG5NQ3VaY eIyLQi/l03RmCTLKdiMpl1VIMHuq5MxV1IPV+KWeJRGCldcruBZgZ6t9ZtPcscXwq5xj N9cg== X-Gm-Message-State: AJaThX5lWR4ZG04Wunu62vHKSfs+qrijUjVFIvjS5cwHYIdmbSeJx0Ql yqkbBQhqJbzLjxd96iyOuuE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABhQp+QT2TQZNxZP8l3moRGJ9J/HdQAL/KK9BRIJhIhp2B6hNvCNoRwmQUoKHcuGfCTsUu70HvKSYA== X-Received: by 10.36.17.142 with SMTP id 136mr18727itf.1.1510101456099; Tue, 07 Nov 2017 16:37:36 -0800 (PST) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.71.200 with SMTP id f8ls4373212pgs.7.gmail; Tue, 07 Nov 2017 16:37:35 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.99.104.7 with SMTP id d7mr254618pgc.46.1510101455502; Tue, 07 Nov 2017 16:37:35 -0800 (PST) ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; t=1510101455; cv=none; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; b=jIz9gQle57i8sKQzXuFQaHkpJgbzraltDemlvx0Unkgx/quGxoVY8SZ60+LkNyfFcQ aSuXdmVU8+8b/N84/dGESSUxtre702vOibqGvU9JRiaa7dQSumeu9kIa+ZkcabGnEpr8 V3kwy/FPVSmaeGSK8VBfyvp+OyQ5jj712KBp9PFXb18/A2PNt+dPcf4D11jGyBnZhleO hp3VbvM3MdLx45UlHe1QWorXt1sbam547W+TgezBAytJzEbmWA+GdM2XoU4qGJHIK8Vr pBc9aoCkakZJvAhw6piWHqp9tn4mzQ412AQnyHmiXtbxp4KBdDDDOhIpZA4nYV3ad+RT K08A== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=arc-20160816; h=mime-version:subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date :dkim-signature:arc-authentication-results; bh=HjgXIvtk6FgaGUf88dlwSIFNipQvRKm/bQaTFegvetA=; b=kHrJMeqBQSSKsyhdzwGTR3SWu3l7NiwMb4O1/sLSOG2YtzLg5TIQklfWdVuKc8vjkn iw5SEi8FcfVkGw0fJTMITcBk8nMsmYKh1eFYTTTbkyLz4rhQM/TaVLgYGQAJA+Dx0j5M pYBT3WcAEapYZOgqwDxNyqQ865m3wxtGYRvtVr1eCqhtZR5qvQkxglnQOIhiXW8BEhXC oiERMD3P15PfSDHEfPZ4+1rhhZ83pvFJrxMbdwPVeNIJUrmnc6vKwZ7A3Cx12uh1D71D 2vhaqudVmNkRUA1agvnXH6EfWLxd5/i+QX73y5uzfjNoMh7xZXRw17HYtoTHOW3XgP1y 7yHQ== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com header.s=s2048 header.b=kJg8tnF/; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 74.6.128.84 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT sp=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Received: from sonic312-22.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com (sonic312-22.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com. [74.6.128.84]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m7si210800pga.0.2017.11.07.16.37.35 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 07 Nov 2017 16:37:35 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 74.6.128.84 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.6.128.84; X-YMail-OSG: eg_6WooVM1mYRzBH72xILwoxJV0qRujUPl1Rb10e_247gjemP56ANKPBNp54Jds Js83XK35Qpk9NF1zOhw1ccpMZxB75BOqkCLubM0._abqWcSg3TkEf4VEkimS9k5NZbulLVImZVGt FZxhGNQrqI3tm1O.MazOaZClW9zSrN4Flr6t75PnfN0zQx0NrD5qt05wsTqoXpAffJT4eF.sXOy2 xYAnoSul.ihAGcYB5E0_VBMpNKB18dSvW4EJizLTWYRFUm5cEhyOnWnXyx7ZE5Mz.yEjfIyKvSXG E32zTG7XyZQJorZEsmH9FcxU.TqaCIMXR__Gbs55dPkjpzfipmCZHt5YMrAuOpEndc5dKhFKdKUg kDlsNHJUeS5dugcEh71EnYkjNW7MsW4N8zCXVl6JlzlFRfR8KqScIE5c4WdtejAvFhJkpWFLB6z7 SSDWHKTUyVpxa18BusBF9FFNWCPCIkyrkrKCRbiT0J3VuIJO2exC7DbCbvnaAqPv8ogzxpNJ.wxz mJvmt5.4- Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic312.consmr.mail.bf2.yahoo.com with HTTP; Wed, 8 Nov 2017 00:37:34 +0000 Date: Wed, 8 Nov 2017 00:37:31 +0000 (UTC) From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" To: Message-ID: <1135546051.4959965.1510101451645@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: <03cb7058-3183-4b01-96f6-6a58ea2286e4@googlegroups.com> <3a342986-92d1-47e1-a9fe-5f2acb7b3942@googlegroups.com> <4fb750ee-48ab-40ac-9952-1d168bbba829@googlegroups.com> <995476206.4863253.1510090018280@mail.yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: CLL and modern Lojban MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4959964_1269776122.1510101451641" X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.10849 YMailNorrin Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10_12_6) AppleWebKit/604.3.5 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/11.0.1 Safari/604.3.5 Content-Length: 21987 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com header.s=s2048 header.b=kJg8tnF/; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 74.6.128.84 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT sp=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com X-Original-From: John E Clifford Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Spam-Checked-In-Group: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -2.5 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.5 X-Spam_score_int: -24 X-Spam_bar: -- ------=_Part_4959964_1269776122.1510101451641 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, but the language it is meant to be is a very delicate balance: logic= al in a technical sense, monoparsed, and whatever else folks have added on.= =C2=A0A change in grammar will almost inevitably alter some of these thing= s and restoring the balance will not be easy (and often not possible). =C2= =A0It may be a better language in all sorts of ways (stripped of excrescenc= es, say), but it will. not be the Lojban of the prospectus and so, arguably= , not Lojban at all (name notwithstanding). =C2=A0pycyn On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 6:16:12 PM CST, MorphemeAddict wrote: =20 =20 No, not "fall into ordinariness again". Rather, it will be improved to fix= or remove the problems discovered by the fluent speakers that weren't know= n to the designers. A constant progression to a better language.=C2=A0 stevo=C2=A0 | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 3:26 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: So MA's point seems to be that the Lojban project is impossible by the nat= ure of language, since, evenif we do eventually create a language that meet= s the ideal, as soon as people learn it, it will fall away into ordinarines= s again.=C2=A0 The only possible ways out seem to be to believe that change= s in the language will always be merely to vocabulary, never to grammar, or= that every change in the grammar can be met with a compensating that resto= res the old system or creates a new one just as good.=C2=A0 Both of those h= opes seem as unlikely as no change at all. =C2=A0So, the goal of Lojban is = create once the ideal language, then pickle it forever as a display. On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 2:23:35 PM CST, MorphemeAddict wrote: =20 =20 It's that 3rd point, the reintegration into the core, which I see as unten= able.=C2=A0 And what constitutes the core, anyway?=C2=A0 Learning things about the language that only fluent speakers can know means= the language will be improvable in ways the original designers couldn't ha= ve anticipated (or they would have). Therefore change is inevitable. What's= not likely, though, is that the change will keep the language unified, eve= n backward-compatible. Something along the way (an imperfection in the orig= inal design) will become broken when the change occurs, and this is unavoid= able.=C2=A0 For those who want to learn a language that will never change, pick somethi= ng like Sanskrit or Middle Egyptian. Languages MUST change to stay alive.= =C2=A0 stevo | | Virus-free. www.avast.com | On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 3:51 AM, wrote: @stevo: Sorry I don't understand the "make it the same as it was before". F= rom my point of view: =20 - Establishing language rules "forever" is not possible. Therefore some = changes will be necessary. This is what called "evolution". - Forking may be interesting. It may be an pure experiment, a "feature b= ranch", a fix, etc. - Reintegrating a branch to the core actually changes the core! This is = why it must be done very carefully, in order to not break initial intents o= f the language. I hope I mad myself clearer :-) Le mardi 7 novembre 2017 09:59:20 UTC+1, stevo a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0: sykynder: You mention re-integrating forks back into the core language. How= do you change something and then make it the same as it was before? And wh= y would you want to?=C2=A0=C2=A0stevo --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@ googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/ group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@ googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/ group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ optout. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@ googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/ group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. =20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ------=_Part_4959964_1269776122.1510101451641 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, but the language it is meant to be is a very delicat= e balance: logical in a technical sense, monoparsed, and whatever else folk= s have added on.  A change in grammar will almost inevitably alter som= e of these things and restoring the balance will not be easy (and often not= possible).  It may be a better language in all sorts of ways (strippe= d of excrescences, say), but it will. not be the Lojban of the prospectus a= nd so, arguably, not Lojban at all (name notwithstanding).  
pycyn


=20
=20
On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 6:16:12 PM CST, Morph= emeAddict <lytlesw@gmail.com> wrote:


No, not "fall into ordinariness again". Rather, it will be impro= ved to fix or remove the problems discovered by the fluent speakers that we= ren't known to the designers. A constant progression to a better language.&= nbsp;

stevo 
Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Tue, No= v 7, 2017 at 3:26 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <lojban@googlegro= ups.com> wrote:
So MA's point seems to be that the Lojban project is impos= sible by the nature of language, since, evenif we do eventually create a la= nguage that meets the ideal, as soon as people learn it, it will fall away = into ordinariness again.  The only possible ways out seem to be to bel= ieve that changes in the language will always be merely to vocabulary, neve= r to grammar, or that every change in the grammar can be met with a compens= ating that restores the old system or creates a new one just as good. = Both of those hopes seem as unlikely as no change at all.  
So, the goal of Lojban is create once the ideal language, then pickle it f= orever as a display.


=20
=20
On Tuesday, November 7, 2017, 2:23:35 PM CST, Morph= emeAddict <lytlesw@gmai= l.com> wrote:


It's that 3rd point, the reintegration into the core, which I see as = untenable. 

And wha= t constitutes the core, anyway? 

Learning things about the language that only fluent speakers = can know means the language will be improvable in ways the original designe= rs couldn't have anticipated (or they would have). Therefore change is inev= itable. What's not likely, though, is that the change will keep the languag= e unified, even backward-compatible. Something along the way (an imperfecti= on in the original design) will become broken when the change occurs, and t= his is unavoidable. 


stevo
=

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 3:51 AM, <sukender1@gmail.com> wrot= e:
@stevo: Sorry I don't under= stand the "make it the same as it was before". From my point of view:
=
  • Establishing language rules "forever" is not possible. Therefo= re some changes will be necessary. This is what called "evolution".
    • Forking may be interesting. It may be an pure experiment, a "feature branc= h", a fix, etc.
  • Reintegrating a branch to the core actually changes= the core! This is why it must be done very carefully, in order to n= ot break initial intents of the language.
I hope I mad mysel= f clearer :-)



Le mardi 7 novembre 2017 09:59:20 UTC+1, stevo a =C3=A9crit = :
sykynder: You mention re-integrating forks back into the core langu= age. How do you change something and then make it the same as it was before= ? And why would you want to? 
 
stevo

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@ googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/ gr= oup/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ = optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@ googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/ gr= oup/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ = optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@ googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/ gr= oup/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ = optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/gro= up/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/o= ptout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http= s://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
------=_Part_4959964_1269776122.1510101451641--